Military Combatives

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jmjkd

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Jeet Kune Do + Brazilian Jiu-jitsu =MMA, or UFC style fighting.

Matt Larsen and the Army went to the groups that were associated with this Mix of training. They researched and brought in civilian instructors and developed The Modern Army Combatives and the other Armed Forces followed this format.
Anyone serving prior to 95 was taught combatives old school, I believe that is why many in their late 40's and older have no idea what I am talking about because they learned in an entirely different way with different termanology..

So the Army learned from the civilians and almost all LE is following in this same footprint.

I posted these vids to show the members how the Military has excepted this training and confirm that they too can learn this modern approach to combat free and do it right at home. Just follow the the tracks.
 
jmjkd said:
I posted these vids to show the members how the Military has accepted this training and confirm that they too can learn this modern approach to combat free and do it right at home. Just follow the the tracks.
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Fixed that for you.

As one that went through the "Combatives" program in the Military...I can't stand that CRAP! Any form of combat that relies on strictly fighting one on one and requiring the combatants to leave their feet and go to the ground is not for me at all! Most of the Military that I know say that it's great for the gym but in real life that stuff will get you killed. Nearly got my brother-in-law killed in Iraq when the second guy jumped into the fight. Thank God for his battle-buddy with a shotgun.

Just my opinion.

Aloha
 
jmjkd said:
Jeet Kune Do + Brazilian Jiu-jitsu =MMA, or UFC style fighting.
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Just a pet peeve of mine (and not to hijack this tread), but learning a striking discipline & bjj does not make you a mixed martial artist. It's how MMA started out, but today it is an entity of it's own. No one trains boxing, then wrestling, and then heads to bjj class anymore. Everything is pretty much MMA all the time. The submission and striking game in MMA different; an example would be Nick Diaz, who is arguably one of the best MMA strikers around. Ask any boxer though, and they'll say he's flat footed, too squared up, etc etc. Even things that work out in bjj don't fare so well in MMA (double wrist control, bottom 1/2 guard, bottom guard, mount in some cases).
You're starting to see more and more of these younger guys coming up, who training MMA. Not wrestling and bjj, or muay thai and bjj, but MMA. Rory Macdonald and Erik Koch being to great examples. </rant>

As for my thoughts on military application... not a good idea, although it's better than nothing. I believe the Russians had it right with Sambo, throw hard and often, and submissions over position. Keep it simple, get on top and be super aggressive. I doubt anyone remembers the joint locks and fancy stuff they learned during training.
 
It's a damn joke... They generate more injuries for a style of combat that is trained for without battle gear. I don't think you'll ever see a soldier in full battle gear attempting the shrimping move to gain a dominant position on the battle field. Bunch of crap.

 
Fighting is always evolving. When BJJ first came on to the scene, fighting on the ground from in the guard was the way most BJJ guys went. Today, almost everyone knows submission defense, even if they only have a little BJJ under their belt. So it's not as effective as it used to be.

While I wouldn't recommend BJJ as one's sole method of self defense, I think everyone should study it. The ground is the last place you want to be in a fight, but some fights do end up there in certain situations. It's clearly not good against multiple attackers and in most battlefield situations.

I'm with Skywalker. Hit hard and often, stay on your feet and move. If you end up on the ground, get a dominant position ASAP and punch instead of going for a submission.
 
alohadoug said:
Fixed that for you.

As one that went through the "Combatives" program in the Military...I can't stand that CRAP! Any form of combat that relies on strictly fighting one on one and requiring the combatants to leave their feet and go to the ground is not for me at all! Most of the Military that I know say that it's great for the gym but in real life that stuff will get you killed. Nearly got my brother-in-law killed in Iraq when the second guy jumped into the fight. Thank God for his battle-buddy with a shotgun.

Just my opinion.

Aloha
Click to expand...

Thanks for the fix btw bro...;-)

Now you guys I can talk to, and you guys are in the scene abd can speak the language. Awesome!!!


That's the problem with BJJ and Mixed Martial Arts, they purposely take people to the ground. That doesn't float in my book either. However, I see the value in knowing ground fighting because....shit happens and people end up on the ground. .Sand, snow, wetlands, low light, and obstacles promote unsettled footing. Also with the explosion of the UFC and MMA all these schools are popping up teaching this stuff to our next generation and they all do ground fighting. So you at least need to know some.

In 95 the year Matt got the go ahead to reconstruct the program and bring in civilians, I was brought to Ft. Devens to train the guys in the 10th. My job was to train the guys in ground fighting, however they too agreed that chokes and submission was not the answer in spite of the importance of the ground fight. So what I did was use the fundamentals of BJJ but instead of armbars and chokes to submit, I developed a deployment system where the knife or gun was the end result, much better for what they were doing.

Let me explain how this came about.
I had 6 guys from the 10th come to my gym and test me out. No problem I always had an open door policy to come in and try. Anyway after class one of the guys asked me if I noticed anything during our wrestling match. I said not really, he lifted up his shirt and was packing a loaded weapon. That was an eyeopener for me, I thought if I train BJJ in it's traditional manner, so was every other BJJ guy. In other words, training without weapon awareness or weapon deployment when on the ground. That would all change..

I worked closely with a few of the members of the 10th, especially Paul Pawella. Paul was also a student of Mas Ayoob and eventually I taught and introduced the system up at LFI Lethal Force Institute in NH..

I explain to the students the importance of ground fighting but emphasis don't confuse the sport of submission with the real world of knives, guns and multiple opponents. And people reading this shouldn't either.
\
As far as battle gear and not allowing your body to move, shrimp etc....I agree, deploy your weapon and forget the subs...

As far as MMA goes and the Dias brothers, you guys are right on. Boxing doesn't have to worry about take downs, so the MMA boxer has a wider stance to sprawl, clinch etc, and wrestler don't worry about kicks and strikes, but the MMA grappler does, so he addresses single and double leg a little differently.

MMA is it's own sport now....Great sport.


.

...
 
shawn8121 said:
It's a damn joke... They generate more injuries for a style of combat that is trained for without battle gear.
Click to expand...

That's what happened to me. I suffered a neck injury during training that lead to nerve issues with my arm/hand that required surgery to fix. The OT and the surgeon I worked with were leading a charge to get the Army to drop combatives altogether because of the number of CAREER ENDING/DISABILITY injuries. Especially after TRADOC/FORSCOM and the Center for Army Lessons Learned (CALL) at Ft. Leavenworth determined it to be an ineffective technique and of little to no value to the Warfighter.
One evaluator said that it was only slightly above having to shine dress shoes as a WASTE OF TIME for the Warfighter.

Aloha
 
shawn8121 said:
It's a damn joke... They generate more injuries for a style of combat that is trained for without battle gear. I don't think you'll ever see a soldier in full battle gear attempting the shrimping move to gain a dominant position on the battle field. Bunch of crap.
Click to expand...

I remember watching a show where Royce Gracie was teaching at Bragg, they were in Gi's on mats and in a gym. I said to myself, what's up with that. If that were my class everyone would be in battle gear and in the environment similar to where the battle would be fought. Today I teach the same way, if it's cops, wear what you wear on the job. Do you know how uncomfortable it is to roll around on concrete in body armor with your utility belt and all the fix'ens? It sucks..

All you guys that do BJJ, go out in an asphalt parking lot and roll. You will understand where I am coming from.
Sorry to hear about your injuries Doug....Any better these days?
 
Dija said:
Where do you train?
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I have a private practice but we do seminars and workshops here and there. If you are looking for some where let me know what you are looking for and a general location and I will let you know who/what's out there.
 
coastie said:
So if this isnt a good self defense technique then what is?
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Firearms of course! [smile]

But in all seriousness training in any combative sport where there is lots of hard sparring is best imo. Most of the techniques you learn will go out the window in a self defense situation, it's more important that you can still operate under pressure. I don't care what anyone says, being "technical" is vastly overrated. Size and strength are what matters (which is why we carry); cardio to a certain degree, but adrenaline will affect that in a positive and negative way.

BJJ has gone the way of the traditional martial arts. Nowadays it seems like all they do is train for tournaments, and against other bjj practitioners. I know a lot of grapplers who think technique and cardio is all they need, and when they get beat by a stronger guy say something along the lines of "that guy sucks, all he used was his strength." Bottom line: he still beat you, and if that was a real fight, he would've seriously hurt you.

TL;DR Real basic boxing technique, wrestling, and power lifting will go a long way.
 
alohadoug said:
That's what happened to me. I suffered a neck injury during training that lead to nerve issues with my arm/hand that required surgery to fix. The OT and the surgeon I worked with were leading a charge to get the Army to drop combatives altogether because of the number of CAREER ENDING/DISABILITY injuries. Especially after TRADOC/FORSCOM and the Center for Army Lessons Learned (CALL) at Ft. Leavenworth determined it to be an ineffective technique and of little to no value to the Warfighter.
One evaluator said that it was only slightly above having to shine dress shoes as a WASTE OF TIME for the Warfighter.

Aloha
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I feel for you Doug, I myself was injured 3 times doing mandatory combatives training. 2 of the 3 put me on temporary profiles that kept me from career progression courses and other training. Lucky none of it was long lasting like yours and I hope you made a full recovery or making the government pay for it for life.
 
RedFive said:
BJJ has gone the way of the traditional martial arts. Nowadays it seems like all they do is train for tournaments, and against other bjj practitioners. I know a lot of grapplers who think technique and cardio is all they need, and when they get beat by a stronger guy say something along the lines of "that guy sucks, all he used was his strength." Bottom line: he still beat you, and if that was a real fight, he would've seriously hurt you.
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Let's not confuse "Traditional" martial arts with "Commercial" martial arts. Real traditional systems have hardcore training just like you find in modern combatives.
 
Here is a quick example of what I would consider good training. I have to warn that the video quality is terrible, and the kid in the video is not incredibly skilled. However, he has the right idea of training concept instead of technique. What he is doing is a demo of Xingyiquan snake movement, and showing how you can apply the same movement to address several different situations. First he demos the movement, then he shows how you can apply the same movement as a hand strike, shoulder strike, joint lock, or a take down.

 
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newenglandjeff said:
Let's not confuse "Traditional" martial arts with "Commercial" martial arts. Real traditional systems have hardcore training just like you find in modern combatives.
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I have to respectfully disagree. That video is exactly what I've moved away from traditional martial arts, it's a conceptual and theoretical application of fighting. You'll find lots of videos online of people demoing things, but I have yet to come across a TMA finding success in a fight. Modern combatives (and a good self defense system) should be based on empirical data and not concept and/or theory.
Also, I have never seen or heard anything about grappling from the martial arts community until the Gracies were storming dojos and issuing challenges. Ground fighting was written off as ineffective (Judo and wrestling are sports argument) even after they (the Gracies) were beating these guys. Now it seems, with the rising popularity of MMA and the UFC, every TMA has unearthed a lot or secret archive of grappling techniques and what not.

"Real" traditional systems do not have the same training as modern combatives, not until they put the silly belt system aside and the cult like environment. See video below for an example. This guy has his students (and himself) thinking he's the master of the universe. It looks like he's never even been in a fight.

[video=youtube_share;gEDaCIDvj6I]http://youtu.be/gEDaCIDvj6I[/video]
 
RedFive said:
I have to respectfully disagree. That video is exactly what I've moved away from traditional martial arts, it's a conceptual and theoretical application of fighting. You'll find lots of videos online of people demoing things, but I have yet to come across a TMA finding success in a fight. Modern combatives (and a good self defense system) should be based on empirical data and not concept and/or theory.
Also, I have never seen or heard anything about grappling from the martial arts community until the Gracies were storming dojos and issuing challenges. Ground fighting was written off as ineffective (Judo and wrestling are sports argument) even after they (the Gracies) were beating these guys. Now it seems, with the rising popularity of MMA and the UFC, every TMA has unearthed a lot or secret archive of grappling techniques and what not.

"Real" traditional systems do not have the same training as modern combatives, not until they put the silly belt system aside and the cult like environment. See video below for an example. This guy has his students (and himself) thinking he's the master of the universe. It looks like he's never even been in a fight.

[video=youtube_share;gEDaCIDvj6I]http://youtu.be/gEDaCIDvj6I[/video]
Click to expand...

Thats cool if you disagree with the concept over technique stuff. But I still hold that real traditional (not commercial) martial arts have all the stuff you say can only be found in "Modern Combatives". I doubt that any systems cobbled together in the past 50 years have unearthed new concepts in H2H. Especially when some systems can have their lineage solidly traced back 400+ years, with written evidence pushing that back up to 700 years, and anecdotal evidence pushing that back further still. Did these systems survive because they did not work?

The video you linked to show's exactly what I am talking about when I point out the difference between traditional and commercial. You are right. That guy is clearly running a cult/belt factory. He may have learned a martial art, but he certainly did not train it. Nor, is he training those poor suckers that are collapsing under his gaze.

I think the belt thing is more of a product of Japenese systems. It has spilled over into other systems in the US (and been exploited for profit). I believe that traditionally, a student begins with a white belt, and it darkens as it soaks up sweat, dirt, blood, and training.
 
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IMHO people get all hung up on technique, does this technique work? doesn't it work? It's not the techniques, it's how the techniques are done and trained that have improved. It's, who is doing the techniques, and who you are trying to do the techniques too. People vs people, not technique vs technique.

Here's why.
One of the most used punches, is the Boxer's jab, the straight punch. Take 2 guys and teach them both the jab, same amount of time spent, coached by the same person, for 3 Months. They spar,3, 3 minute rounds. One guy comes back disappointed and says that jab doesn't work, the technique doesn't work. The other guy comes back and says it worked perfect, not a mark on me ....Why? Same technique!!!

One guy was 6'2, 185 and the other guy 5'8, 185.....who do you think the jab worked for???

It wasn't the technique (jab) it was who, and how the jab was done. Person vs Person.
 
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newenglandjeff said:
I doubt that any systems cobbled together in the past 50 years have unearthed new concepts in H2H. Especially when some systems can have their lineage solidly traced back 400+ years, with written evidence pushing that back up to 700 years, and anecdotal evidence pushing that back further still. Did these systems survive because they did not work?
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Not new concepts, just more effective ones. Would you trust your life to a ancient firearm or a modern one? Why would people do the same with H2H? On the other hand, wrestling is the oldest martial art and still stands the test of time so there is some validity to your point. But back to my original statement, technique and concept is overrated. Strength, size, power, and aggression are vastly under considered / undervalued.

TL;DR An average chimpanzee would kill Anderson Silva
 
RedFive said:
Not new concepts, just more effective ones. Would you trust your life to a ancient firearm or a modern one? Why would people do the same with H2H? On the other hand, wrestling is the oldest martial art and still stands the test of time so there is some validity to your point. But back to my original statement, technique and concept is overrated. Strength, size, power, and aggression are vastly under considered / undervalued.

TL;DR An average chimpanzee would kill Anderson Silva
Click to expand...

+1


There is a lot of truth to this statement....;-)
 
Not new concepts, just more effective ones. Would you trust your life to a ancient firearm or a modern one? Why would people do the same with H2H? On the other hand, wrestling is the oldest martial art and still stands the test of time so there is some validity to your point.
Click to expand...


I could not have put it better myself. These modern combatives, and other hybrid systems, have not withstood the test of time. They may work. They may in fact be awesome, but they are freshman systems.
Also, there is no reason to believe that these old systems blinked into existence a few hundred years ago and remained unchanged. If anything, they have had time to become refined through real world application.

But back to my original statement, technique and concept is overrated. Strength, size, power, and aggression are vastly under considered / undervalued.
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Yeah, thats kind of why systematic martial training developed, to counteract natural advantages of size and strength. I would file power and aggression under concept, but thats a little too abstract for interweb discussion.


jmjkd said:
+1


There is a lot of truth to this statement....;-)
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And a lot of supposition [grin]

I think time spent training is better than time spent philosophizing on the interweb, so unless you drop any bombs that demand a response, I’m checking out of this thread.
 
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newenglandjeff said:
I think time spent training is better than time spent philosophizing on the interweb, so unless you drop any bombs that demand a response, I’m checking out of this thread.
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+1

I don't see disagreement here, we are all seeking the same thing, protect ourselves against the bad guys.

Two opinions coming from opposite ends, but should meet in the middle.

A person who has strength, size, power, and aggression along with awesome techniques. That's the best of both worlds.

Sometimes you start with technique and when trying to apply it sparring, you wish you were a little faster, stronger and bigger to support the technique.
OR
You have size and strength and are a good brawler but wish you knew some technique to be more efficient and get better results faster. Eventually in time they meet.

Pop in and out of thread/post whenever jeff. it's great to get your input....It's all good.
 
newenglandjeff said:
And a lot of supposition [grin]

I think time spent training is better than time spent philosophizing on the interweb, so unless you drop any bombs that demand a response, I’m checking out of this thread.
Click to expand...

I also feel the same. Last point before I check out as well:

Nature is harsher than any training or opponent that Anderson Silva could put himself through, I'd bet everything on the chimp [smile].
 
alohadoug said:
Fixed that for you.

Any form of combat that relies on strictly fighting one on one and requiring the combatants to leave their feet and go to the ground is not for me at all! Most of the Military that I know say that it's great for the gym but in real life that stuff will get you killed.
Click to expand...


Agreed. Geoff Thompson, the Author of "The Fence" speaks of this in his book. (papraphrasing here) He discusses that MMA/BJJ and similar styles are not self defense techniques in any capacity but admits that he would not likely do so well in a ring up against someone well versed in these techniques.

He describes witnessing a bar fight where an individual, obviously trained in MMA, wraps up another guy on the ground with his arms and legs. Unfortunately the individual with the MMA training who is attempting to submit his "opponent" is stabbed in the neck by the girlfriend of the guy being choked out and is killed. He was totally exposed with no ability to defend himself.

great book
 
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We'll just have to ask Tim Kennedy
20090927084915_IMG_2293.jpg

tim_kennedy.jpg

crop_TimKennedy_KatyPerry-300x225.jpg


Someone with a live AKO email him [rofl]
 
That might be what he wrote in his book, but that's not what he does or teaches. He teaches a form of BJJ/MMA him self. He fights1-on-1 and he goes to the ground. So don't know why he conveys a false message in his book. This is him teaching and his students and him training...????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FGLhlakkUk&feature=fvwrel

Don't believe everything you read. Experience it yourself
 
Let us know what branch and when and where you served.

I'm sure eager minds are ready to learn where exactly you learned ANYTHING about "military combatives"
 

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