Match Prizes

D

Dan S

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Okay, here's a new thread.
As I've mentioned before, I've been out of the game a long time. Time marches on, things change. John H, Rob, myself and a few others here actually remember a time when prizes were awarded not only at big matches, but local ones too. Not just a free entry, cash. Prizes were given out by performance, no raffle. Normally match winner, and class winners. Bigger turnout would sometimes result in a little deeper payout. But, there were no divisions....run what you brung. Revolvers were almost unheard of, open guns....just starting out then. So, there's a difference here, awarding prizes was pretty easy. When I started my long break from IPSC shooting, the local match prizes were starting to go away. One club started the policy, however, they cut the entry in half when they did. Big matches still gave out stuff. The king of them all was the Miller Invitational, which became the Smith and Wesson Invitaional, put on by Pathfinder Practical Shooters. Man, that place was awesome. I do know that they didn't just contact manufacturers and ask for donations. They would actually buy stuff for prizes. The companies would give them deals, distributor pricing, by 2 get 3 etc. This concept was unlike any other match. However, it also became kind of a mini national. Big names shot there, lots of them. Names like Leatham, Barnhartt, Miculek (sorry I probably got it wrong, spelling wise) the Clarks. The super squad really did have the super shooters. A big draw for everyone. The match would fill in a couple days, over 300 shooters. This was pre-internet, shooters would express mail their entries to make sure they got in. Hotel reservations were made when checking out, since next years date was known. They had a heck of a track record, and that helped drastically when contacting people about the prize pool. Some of the stuff awarded would make you cry today. Could this work today, maybe, maybe not. That match was prepared over the course of the year, not just a few months. People got burned out organizing. And finally things got to be too much, and the match is no longer.
As Rob has said, prize policy is determined by the match director. Getting match directors for large matches is tough. We all seem to be too busy, or, just want someone else to do it. We see it at local matches, let alone something big. Not to mention, manufacturers run a tight bottom line, and probably can't be so generous. Don't forget, they get hit by lot's of clubs.
So, I'll most likely shoot local matches for the most part. Bigger ones will be chosen by the fun / interest factor for me personally. Prizes aren't a deciding factor, particularly as I get older. They are simply a bonus.
I'd like to thank all the people that take on the responsibility of running the matches, large and small. Without them, we might just be playing golf. Nahhh, not that! :)
 
Those were the days! Going to a local match, shooting pretty decent, clean, no stooges, no misses. Waiting the two to three weeks for the results to come in the mail. Being all pumped up when that envelope showed up in your mailbox. Tearing open to have a check in the sum of anywhere between $10 and $65+ falling out ith the typewritten results page! That was great!

Then the clubs started to give away free shoots. That was cool too but not as cool as the check! It really doesnt cost a club to do the free shoot thing. I think only one club still does it, AND, they charge the least to shoot a match. On a local level, The free shoot for winning your class or division is a great way to say thank you to the shooters who do spend the money to come and shoot the match.

I understand it costs money to run a match so maybe a modified free shoot award structure could work, offer a free shoot to the winner in each division IE;
open
limited 10
Production
single stack
limited
rev

Or award by class, regardless of what division they shot.
Hoa
M
A
B
C
D

In the end, all that giving away 6 free shoots does to the bottom line is makes it look like you had 6 less shooters than the month prior. Really, how much cash is a club spending on a local level sunday match? 4-5-6 stages? say an average of 6-18 paper targets per stage, a few rolls of tape and maybe a couple cans of spray paint, maybe some new strapping for target holders and some staples?

Lets look at it.
At a recent local match there were 36 shooters. $20 entry fee per shooter
36x20=$720, There is no way the club spent that much on supplies for that days match? Most likely not. So would they really miss $120 it "costs" them to offer up a free shoot? Probably not. I would like to see more clubs offer a free shoot as a prize on a local level.

Now on a National level, I've been out of the game really for so long I dont know how or why things changed as far as awarding prizes go. Last major match I shot, I was the third person to PICK FROM THE AWARDS TABLE and walked away with a brandy new Glock 22 .40 Pistol ! My .02 is this, If there is a prize table, you should earn your trip to it via your performance in the match. You want to win a prize at a match? put the time in, practice, practice, practice......I won that glock after spending almost a full year of practicing, 1000 rounds a week of live fire at the range. 2.5 hours EVERY night dry fire in the living room. Hours on end in the back yard learning how to get into a shooting box READY to shoot, how to leave a shooting box, Sight aqusition, knowing when I can actually let the first shot go when indexing on a target. Watching over and over again videos I took of Rob L, Doug K, Jerry B. seeing what they were doing in great detail.

So as far as I'm concerned,
Earn that prize at a match, dont luck into one...........
 
Major matches?
Questions for the group:
Do you think a decent prize for high of all, each class, would attract more top shooters?

I think so, sponsored or not, incentives work. I maybe longing for the past, but, there was nothing like seeing 6 or 8 GM's shooting together in a super squad. It was worth it just for the excitement & entertainment factor.

Would you pay an additional say $25, so a match would pay at least 1st in class & HOA?

I would gladly; I have plenty of $100+ T-shirts. (Although somehow they seemed to shrink while up in the attic, wonder why that happens?)
I think someone should be rewarded for the performance of winning their class, we need not worry much about repeat class winners sandbagging & hogging prizes as class winners at matches that count should be promoted to the next higher class. Lately, some majors have failed to attract enough GM's to allow the match to count toward classification. According to Dave Thomas USPSA, you have to have 3 or more GM's per division in order to have the match count. As Matt pointed out, we already are paying plenty to go to the big matches, may as well be rewarded for good finish and have the match count too.

STOP! HAMMERTIME!
 
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Am I incorrect, or is it you don't even get the $100.00 tee shirt at area matches?
Our input will have little bearing, you can't miss, what you never had.
Dan
 
Now you have to buy the T-shirt extra....so it's +$15 for a $115 t-shirt.

Heaven forbid they offer a name tag! (which I would gladly pay extra for)
 
Big Matches

Dan hit the key point - the bigger issue is finding people to host, and run, the big matches. If you're at the point of debating the merits of a prize policy, you're ahead of the curve because it means there is match :).

One of my responsibilities is finding a host for the Area 7 Championship peach year - and it's not always easy. In fact, a few years ago, I had to combine it with the NY State Championship (an existing match) since there were no takers.
 
The MA laws are a non-issue, since the issue is not one of comparison to the rest of the US, but to the rest of A7. NY and MA both have state laws which effecively extend the federal ban, and each also has a visitor's exemption we're at competetive equity with NY. (the MA exemption requires the visitor for a match have a license from some state, district or territory whcih does not issue such licenses to drug users or felons). The other state in A7 (NH, VT, CT, RI, ME) have not traditionallybeen in the rotation due to a lack of facilities and interest, however, I believe that will change and the rotation may need to be expanded.

The MA gun laws have for all practical purposes precluded MA from bidding on a nationals. Even if we were to bid on the Single Stack Nationals, we'd still have to tell competitors "get a license from some state if you want to be in full compliance with MA law."
 
First off, don't listen to me because I'm still a new guy and I've never even seen the grand prize tables that I've heard about. And compared to guys like Dan, John, and Hal, I'm still going backward (and maybe always will). I'm serious about this; I don't have the breadth of exposure anywhere close to these guys. But I'll toss out an observation so that I can hear more input. I know it's too long, so that's another reason not to read.

I barely got into this game when I became associated with a gang of delinquents who felt compelled to produce an Area match. This required several weeks at the range without a gun in sight The next summer told the same story. You can also see that the people who build the Area matches are the same stumblebums who build the local monthly matches.

So, it's fairly understandable that it is far easier to get shooters to attend a match than it is to get workers to help create a match. Accordingly, the match producers need to find help before they can even start to worry about whether super-squad shooters will attend. And how do you find help? That's the great question of this game.

One of the proposed answers is to try to make sure that the working dogs get a good share of the prizes. They've sacrificed giant chunks of their practice time by working at the range over the course of several weeks. Then they shoot the match a day early, while running around with hammers, wrenches, and pliers to trouble shoot those high-tech props that rarely work as well in sand as they did on paper. Afterward, they work the match as sweating, drooling ROs. There's a decent chance that they won't shoot as well as if they had normal practice time for the last 6 weeks and then got a good night's sleep before shooting. So one philosophy is that an open raffle will allow working dogs an even chance to run with the big dogs, at least at the prize table. (And, yes, the Area matches at Harvard included buying a large amount of hardware to help improve the prize list.)

A similar thought is carried through to monthly matches. It's true that division/class winners aren't getting free shoots anymore except at Manville, but show up for two to three hours on Saturday to help build a match, and you're gonna shoot for free.

Several clubs have evaporated in the area, typically because of burn-out and lack of help. The shooters were there until the end, but there were fewer and fewer to help build something to shoot at. So, what is a club's first priority; shooters or workers? If we can't keep enthusiastic USPSA workers, we're gonna end up shooting cowboy guns, and next comes the total collapse of civilized behavior where we're all calling each other silly names like "Smokeriver Valley Transmission Repair Cowpoke Slim."

I know that the guys at Manville give free shoots to both workers and class winners, and that is definitely cool. But if you have 5 divisions with 2-4 classes each plus a dozen guys working to build the match, then the previously mentioned financial math starts to weaken (particularly when you throw in range fees and USPSA fees). Do you guys have any idea how much Westfield needs to pay S&W for each shooter at an indoor match? Next, we gotta toss in the cost of swingers and movers, shakers and quakers, replacement poppers, target stands, sticks, etc. I don't really think anybody's kid is going to college off the local match fees, (except maybe "Jac-Jac" if any of you guys remember that good-for-nothing little snot-nosed son-of-a-procedural.)

Anyway, I don't have any specific answers or opinions. I'm just pointing out the eternal question; what do I need more, shooters or workers? (I guess I could have simply said that at the beginning and left the rest of this whale-spew unwritten.)
 
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I completely agree with Dan. There are so many guys busting their butt setting up the match. They are the ones who deserve the majority of the prizes. The guys who are winning are generally spending their time practicing and they aren't the ones who keep the game going. There are exceptions of course.
It takes me two hours to get to the closest IPSC club. I may not get to help out because of the driving distance but I'll gladly pay the entry fees that they ask for and don't expect any tangible reward if I win.
I guess my point is, take care of the guys setting up the match first and if there is anything left over the rest of the shooters should probably earn their prizes by match performance (division or class) rather than a drawing.
 
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My point is, this is a competition.
Generally, all competitions held in this country yield awards to the winner, baseball, golf, football, basketball, hockey whatever, local or major league are playing for recognition for winning. Albeit a trophy, a plaque or a Superbowl ring.

But, not us.[sad]
I don't expect big prizes or prize money, just something.

If cost is the issue, raise the entry fee,

I didn't stop buying gas just because it went to $3.15
How much does it cost to see a baseball game, football game or play a round of golf? ( I don't know, cause I go shooting, but, I'll bet it's for than $15-$20)
If a club raised it's entry fee to give awards, I wouldn't stay home.
 
Guys, dont get me wrong. I understand about workers at the match and running a match.....I did it too for years. Ask Rob about shooting on of my matches at 2:30am........Of course the match workers shot for free...all four of us....LOL. We also paid cash to the winners of each class and HOA. I'll tell you this much too.......I run an anual event for another hobby of mine. This year there were 180 participants. I had T shirts done for this event and in the end each shirt was under 7 bucks a piece.......I'll get a solid number if your interested....for a 100 dollar Match entry fee I think they could throw in a T shirt....Like John, my wife must have shrunk all of my older ones while I wasnt looking...LOL

I know this is a tough thing to figure out and everybody will have an opinion. All we can do is thank the guys that run the match, help out when and where we can and shoot to the best of our abilities. Lets not forget that we are supposed to be having fun too.
 
Hmmmm....I think I should have named the thread "Match Prizes at Major Matches". Because that is the basis of it's start.
I guess the issue is that it appears that prizes at some of the higher dollar matches are given to competitors by the raffle system. This I also disagree with. It's a competition, as John said. You do good, a reward should be available for those that do spend the time and money to excell at the sport they choose. Those of us, like myself, whose practice consists of the first 2 or more stages....well, that's our choice :) I don't shoot well, I don't expect a prize, unless it's a 10 pack of targets to practice on. Don't laugh, it's been done. Maybe it's the way society has been going in recent years. Rewards not based on work, the popular term is entitlement. Bad thing, in my opinion. I'm not entitled to something I didn't earn, or pay for in the case of the lottery :)
So, whether the prizes awarded at major matches are something donated by the industry, or simply cash if there isn't enough from them. I think they should be done by performance. I'm sure that most shooters will agree.
 
I’ve been holding a monthly match at my club for a few years now. We award prizes to the top three shooters in each division (Limited/Limited 10) and we also have a drawing to award the Grand Prizes. The Grand Prizes are solicited from local vendors and we spring for the division prizes. The first season we had prizes at every match, now we award all prizes at the end of the season.

We started the drawing to bring new shooters into the sport (particularly club members). As people became aware of the matches and the prizes that were available, they felt they’d never be in a position to win. With the drawing, just by attending a match, there’d be an opportunity to win something. Although I don’t think it helped much, it’s made it more fun for the guys who do compete.

Unfortunately, the competition’s been getting tougher and looks like I may be edged out this year. I may have to rethink this whole prize thing ...LOL:)
 
Our club is small (one range), so we are not an affiliated USPSA club, but we do run the match according to all the same rules. Due to the small size we only have two divisions to make it more competitive and to limit the number of prizes.

We have been working on expanding the range and become an affiliated club, but as with most clubs, politics and the lack of help and resources, thing are moving slowly to say the least.

We’re located In Rehoboth, Ma. Most matches are held the second Saturday of the month.
 
Now theres a great Idea! On a Local level...Year end awards wouldnt be bad....Gives you something to strive for. maybe a club could keep track of the points and award the top shooters someting at the end of the season...
 
Hamar said:
I had T shirts done for this event...
Click to expand...
Those guys in the T-shirt business are crooks.

Everyone has made good points as long as the major vs local matches distinction in kept in mind.

Whatever they do up at the Aware match seems to work great. The winners get something and all the competitors draw for something, on top of providing incredible stages.

If you are interested in getting additional rewards for your efforts, look outside of the match. STI, Trijicon, and at least one gunsmith I've read about offer contingency rewards for winning with their gear at big matches.
 
I just dug out my paperwork for the T shirts I did for my event. I provided the artwork in vector format. My cost per shirt all said and done for 110 T's was $4 per shirt......just a fyi thats all.........
 
Hamar said:
Now theres a great Idea! On a Local level...Year end awards wouldnt be bad....Gives you something to strive for. maybe a club could keep track of the points and award the top shooters someting at the end of the season...
Click to expand...

end of year awards are a great idea. They can go to the guy/girl that showed up, set up, and tore down the most frequently for local matches then shot. Those are the people that deserve it the most. Without them, there would be no match.

For majors, I don't care what the prize is or how it is given out. Just let me shoot.

Thanks to all that work and I hope to make it to one of Andy's match days before the end of the season. Lim 10 with my 627 should be fun.

Gary
 
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