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LTC application in my town...

L

Lugnut

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Well the thread on which towns are good and bad for LTC provoked me to look at my town's application. I have a question on this part:

10. HAVE YOU EVER APPEARED IN ANY COURT AS A DEFENDANT FOR ANY CRIMINAL OFFENSE (EXCLUDING NONCRIMINAL TRAFFIC OFFENSES)?

I've reviewed this before and am curious.... if one was arrested but not convicted for DUI 20 years ago what would be the correct answer to this? Was this a criminal offense then? I don't think it was punishable with up to 2 years like it is now.

It really annoys me that even if someone wasn't actually convicted for anything that they can even ask this.
 
The police do NOT arrest people on non-criminal offenses! Police specifically do NOT have the power of arrest for civil offenses . . . that is what Constables do (we have power of arrest for both civil and criminal offenses).

Therefore, you must answer YES here and explain it.

If you answer NO, a BOP will no doubt show that you lied and most chiefs will DQ you as "unsuitable" for lying on the form you "sign under pains and penalties of perjury". That is being charitable, as you could be criminally charged with perjury if they wanted to push it.
 
From the Brockton PD website (applicable in any community in this state, but at least Brockton informs the applicant right from the get go).

"Question 10 on the application:
Have you ever appeared in any court as a defendant for any criminal or criminal traffic offense? You do not have to put down non-criminal traffic offenses (Key word, appeared, not necessarily arrested)

Having been arrested and convicted of a crime does not necessarily prohibit you from getting a L.T.C. or F.I.D. Not putting it down does.

Understand that “ever appeared” includes all adult and juvenile appearances. It does not matter if you were found not guilty or if the charges were dismissed or continued without a finding; you have to put it down. If you do not answer truthfully we will find out, no matter how long ago. If you have a sealed record, let us know. (you do not have to tell us what is in the sealed record) We do get notified of sealed records disqualifiers.

We will not accept “I forgot” or “They” told me it would not show up. “It never showed up before” “That was so long ago”

Make any changes now, remember you are signing under the penalties of perjury and you will be denied a license for that and face court prosecution for perjury.

http://www.brocktonpolice.com/crimeprevent/gunsafety.htm#Application Instructions Sheet

" Was this a criminal offense then? I don't think it was punishable with up to 2 years like it is now."
Click to expand...

Yes it was/is (20 years ago)..

The increased possible (whether actually imposed or not), sentencing for a 1st time DUI in MA is May 27, 1994 (2 1/2 years). On or after that date, a person would not only be screwed if convicted in MA, but also be screwed at the federal level as well.

From the 1968 GCA...

"20) The term “crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year” does not include—
(A) any Federal or State offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or other similar offenses relating to the regulation of business practices, or
(B) any State offense classified by the laws of the State as a misdemeanor and punishable by a term of imprisonment of two years or less.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html
 
Yeah... I got this 2 year thing mixed up. Sorry. Any DUI conviction after that date means automatic loss of license, prior to that a DUI didn't mean automatic loss.

Thanks for clearing this up for me.

I guess I wonder why they ask these things if they have the means to "find out" anyway as the Brockton PD says...
 
Lugnut said:
I guess I wonder why they ask these things if they have the means to "find out" anyway as the Brockton PD says...
Click to expand...
They ask these things in the hopes that they trip you up. Their intent is to NOT issue you a permit.
 
Lugnut said:
Yeah... I got this 2 year thing mixed up. Sorry. Any DUI conviction after that date means automatic loss of license, prior to that a DUI didn't mean automatic loss.

Thanks for clearing this up for me.

I guess I wonder why they ask these things if they have the means to "find out" anyway as the Brockton PD says...
Click to expand...

I wonder that about income taxes. If they know it all anyhow, why do they make you go through the hoops?
 
Coyote33 said:
I wonder that about income taxes. If they know it all anyhow, why do they make you go through the hoops?
Click to expand...

Well actually they don't. They might get some forms from your employers, etc. but they don't know it all. Plus I bet that can't even link it all together. [wink] I hear ya though.
 
Coyote33 said:
I wonder that about income taxes. If they know it all anyhow, why do they make you go through the hoops?
Click to expand...

An honest answer:

- They only know what is reported to them, but you are liable for ALL income regardless of whether it is reported or not. Self-employed usually don't have anyone reporting income to the IRS (even though there are rules that require it for payments to un-incorporated businesses . . . in my 13 years of self-employment I can count on 1 hand the number of 1099s I've received from those I have done work for {100s of different businesses}).

- If the IRS calculates your "taxes due" they purposely use the most "expensive" (for you) calculations (e.g. Married = Single, homeowner = just the standard deduction, stock sold = zero cost basis, etc.). It's done intentionally to force you to do the work if you want to claim deductions.

- The Feds always shared info, regardless of legality. State of MA has done the same, so there is no real confidentiality of your data and no accountability unless they get caught . . . then they hang a scape-goat and go on their merry way doing what they have always done. Municipalities the same . . . I have reasonable proof that when I refused to give my SSN (for LTC renewal) to the prior chief, he got it from the Town Accountant (who had it for payroll purposes as I was a Special PO). I had never given my SSN to anyone at the PD ever, the RMV didn't have it at that time, etc. It was illegal for the Town Accountant to give it to the chief, but when he called her, of course they gave it to him, no questions asked.

- Medical clearing bureaus (who get info from our providers and insurance companies), credit bureaus, etc. all will sell your data to just about anyone with a business. Your chief could get all these reports if he so desired and was willing to pay the extra ~$20/applicant/report.
 
Last edited:
Saugus town packet has the exact same verbatim explanation of Q10

"Question 10 on the application:
Have you ever appeared in any court as a defendant for any criminal or criminal traffic offense? You do not have to put down non-criminal traffic offenses (Key word, appeared, not necessarily arrested)

Having been arrested and convicted of a crime does not necessarily prohibit you from getting a L.T.C. or F.I.D. Not putting it down does.

Understand that “ever appeared” includes all adult and juvenile appearances. It does not matter if you were found not guilty or if the charges were dismissed or continued without a finding; you have to put it down. If you do not answer truthfully we will find out, no matter how long ago. If you have a sealed record, let us know. (you do not have to tell us what is in the sealed record) We do get notified of sealed records disqualifiers.

We will not accept “I forgot” or “They” told me it would not show up. “It never showed up before” “That was so long ago”

Make any changes now, remember you are signing under the penalties of perjury and you will be denied a license for that and face court prosecution for perjury.
 
The Town of Dedham (which also perpetrates the "re-certification" charade) has long had a Question # 10 advisory such as the above. It's use is far more intelligent than the "re-certification" BS.
 
Lugnut said:
Well the thread on which towns are good and bad for LTC provoked me to look at my town's application. I have a question on this part:

10. HAVE YOU EVER APPEARED IN ANY COURT AS A DEFENDANT FOR ANY CRIMINAL OFFENSE (EXCLUDING NONCRIMINAL TRAFFIC OFFENSES)?

I've reviewed this before and am curious.... if one was arrested but not convicted for DUI 20 years ago what would be the correct answer to this? Was this a criminal offense then? I don't think it was punishable with up to 2 years like it is now.

It really annoys me that even if someone wasn't actually convicted for anything that they can even ask this.
Click to expand...

1. Yes. Regardless of the outcome, you appeared.

2. Yes. OUI was (and remains) a criminal offense.

3. Why? Facts are facts. What matters is what is done with respect to the facts.
 

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