Lowell Man Sentenced to Prison for Gun Trafficking

[Matt_SERE]

umm.......Isn't it illegal to sell more than four guns a year in Mass without a FFL?

Without being an FFL? No. However, you do need to go through an FFL if you have exhausted your 4-portal sales.

 

[Darksideblues42]

Not at all abnormal......the practice is flagged automatically anyway. Federal Gun Law requires the dealer to report said transaction paperwork to both the ATF, and to the local PD of sales of two or more firearms to the same person, within a 5 business day period.

So....the dealer must report that anyway........ so why would he seriously question it as long as the sales are proceed, and technically legal at the time of sale. He does not know the guy is selling them?

If said person NEVER sold those items after the fact....the whole thing is above board and legal. Dealer has no accountability for the actions of the new owners......

Simply, the dealer should have said to the guy........ "i hope you have all these pistols in your possession, because this is a big ATF red flag, and you may get a visit."

Technically incorrect.

2 or more HANDGUNS, not firearms. Although Massachusetts says that handguns are the only things that are firearms (more or less) the feds don't share this definition

 

[RumRunner]

That would be illegal and against the law.

Don't give them any ideas. Illegal and Against the law - that is 2 charges for you!

 

[drgrant]

umm.......Isn't it illegal to sell more than four guns a year in Mass without a FFL?

Are you guys like 5 or something? This case has nothing to do with shitty Mass law.... absolutely nothing. Of course the article is not that great at pointing out this detail.

 

[Matt_SERE]

Are you guys like 5 or something? This case has nothing to do with shitty Mass law.... absolutely nothing. Of course the article is not that great at pointing out this detail.

Sometimes it is easier, best, if you just answer the simple questions less NES will be thought to have a bunch of bullies for its members. Six dozen of one, half dozen of the other. "Baseball NES is 90% mental, the other half is physical."

 

[Mark from MA]

Thanks, I didn’t realize there is a federal distinction similar to Massachusetts’

Massachusetts does not have a law reporting multiple sales of handguns within a 5 day period from one person to the ATF and PD. That is federal law.

Yes...FA10 is reported on those sales.

 

[Mark from MA]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/report-multiple-sale-or-other-disposition-pistols-and-revolvers-atf-form-33104/download

Just handguns. There is another form for sale/transfer of multiple rifles which is used only by a few states adjacent to the Mexican boarder.


Buying a bunch of glocks may or may not have been done via frame transfer since the net result is walking out the door with glocks. The mechanics of a frame transfer will be lost on anyone not in the business or regulating the business since it is essentially a paper tiger. We will never know.

Thank you.

And I realize these could have been Frame Transfers as well. The reporting is so shitty on this who knows. Besides they wouldn't get to that level of detail, they can't even say whether the buyers were licensed or not....which is a big difference because then it makes the sale itself illegal akin to selling guns on the street type of shit. Before even getting into the strawman stuff.

 

[ridleyman]

Glocks in MA? Impossible! Fake news!

 

[milktree]

Massachusetts does not have a law reporting multiple sales of handguns within a 5 day period from one person to the ATF and PD. That is federal law.

Yes...FA10 is reported on those sales.

I never said Mass. had any such requirement. I implied (wrongly) that the feds would consider a handgun frame as a handgun. The "same as Mass." was that they both make a distinction between "a gun that can go bang" and one that can't.

 

[CrackPot]

Thank you.

And I realize these could have been Frame Transfers as well. The reporting is so shitty on this who knows. Besides they wouldn't get to that level of detail, they can't even say whether the buyers were licensed or not....which is a big difference because then it makes the sale itself illegal akin to selling guns on the street type of shit. Before even getting into the strawman stuff.

Interestingly enough, it is perfectly LEGAL to frame a glock to an unlicensed person (no LTC). Since MA law is no longer in play, only federal must be followed. A drivers license and a passed background check and they are good to go on the frame. I would not call this prudent but it is legal.

 

[CrackPot]

Thanks, I didn’t realize there is a federal distinction similar to Massachusetts’

A big difference is that federally the decomposition of a rifle or pistol into constituent parts still results on a fully regulated item that must be transferred on a 4473. In MA this turns into an unregulated item which is why frame/receiver transfers are a thing and work. The only way to turn a firearm into an unregulated item federally is to properly demill it which is VERY well documented by the ATF on the proper procedure. This usually requires the use of a plasma torch or other device that takes a sufficient kerf and making necessary cuts through the receiver/frame in the right places.

What a lot of people don't fundamentally understand about the "frame game" is it is NOT about turning something into a frame. It is about turning something into "not a gun under MGL definition". Usually a frame or receiver as defined by USC and CFR does the job. In some cases it does not. For example, removal of the cylinder from a revolver results in a frame according to the ATF and federal definitions. I believe the object, a revolver w/o cylinder is STILL a gun under MA law since it has a barrel, firing pin and trigger; all of these being sufficient to discharge a projectile with the pull of the trigger if one had the right "round". Similar issues exist with trying to receiver an AK or gun of similar mechanism (Galil, etc). But I digress...

 

[Mark from MA]

Interestingly enough, it is perfectly LEGAL to frame a glock to an unlicensed person (no LTC). Since MA law is no longer in play, only federal must be followed. A drivers license and a passed background check and they are good to go on the frame. I would not call this prudent but it is legal.

Yeah......agree there with an FFL frame sale.

However a non FFL selling a frame person to person in the same state (MA) , would not the feds require them to be able own a firearm in said state? Which to me would define an LTC only holder.

I mean I would not do a frame sale to a non LTC person in this state.....just covering my own ass is a good enough reason not to.

 

[CrackPot]

Yeah......agree there with an FFL frame sale.

However a non FFL selling a frame person to person in the same state (MA) , would not the feds require them to be able own a firearm in said state? Which to me would define an LTC only holder.

I mean I would not do a frame sale to a non LTC person in this state.....just covering my own ass is a good enough reason not to.

The feds do not get involved in the personal transfer of firearms between residents of the same state. This is not like having a FFL where a condition of your FFL is you must follow all state laws. Federal law permits the transfer of any firearm between residents of the same state while present in that state as long as the recipient is not a prohibited person and the seller reasonably should have known they were prohibited.

So it is perfectly legal for a private transaction between two MA residents to sell/transfer your frame or receiver to someone w/o a FID/LTC. Prudence is a different discussion.

 

[ddeck]

The feds do not get involved in the personal transfer of firearms between residents of the same state. This is not like having a FFL where a condition of your FFL is you must follow all state laws. Federal law permits the transfer of any firearm between residents of the same state while present in that state as long as the recipient is not a prohibited person and the seller reasonably should have known they were prohibited.

So it is perfectly legal for a private transaction between two MA residents to sell/transfer your frame or receiver to someone w/o a FID/LTC. Prudence is a different discussion.

Just don't sell too many to residents of your same state:

ATF raids home of Clinton Airport's manager

Regarding taping over cameras, I think there may be tactical reasons for this. In the Las Vegas shooting, the shooter put wireless cameras in the hallways outside his room. He used those cameras to shoot through walls at officers moving down the hall towards his door. Reportedly, he had...

www.northeastshooters.com

 

[milktree]

I believe the object, a revolver w/o cylinder is STILL a gun under MA law since it has a barrel, firing pin and trigger; all of these being sufficient to discharge a projectile with the pull of the trigger if one had the right "round".

Given that "the right round" would basically be "a cylinder", is this distinction meaningful? The cylinderless revolver doesn't have a chamber, there's no way to hold a cartridge without manufacturing something that looks a lot like a cylinder, which makes it (nearly) impossible for it to discharge a projectile.

 

[CrackPot]

Given that "the right round" would basically be "a cylinder", is this distinction meaningful? The cylinderless revolver doesn't have a chamber, there's no way to hold a cartridge without manufacturing something that looks a lot like a cylinder, which makes it (nearly) impossible for it to discharge a projectile.

This is a philosophical debate along the lines of "chicken or egg?" Remove the trigger or barrel or hammer and I am good with transferring it as "not a gun" under MA law. Given that it has a barrel, trigger, hammer/firing pin I won't touch it. My choice/risk management. You can make your own choices.

 

[Spartan65]

Just don't sell too many to residents of your same state:

ATF raids home of Clinton Airport's manager

Regarding taping over cameras, I think there may be tactical reasons for this. In the Las Vegas shooting, the shooter put wireless cameras in the hallways outside his room. He used those cameras to shoot through walls at officers moving down the hall towards his door. Reportedly, he had...

www.northeastshooters.com

He was selling firearms to anyone including those he knew were felons/PP.

The guns he sold turned up at crime scenes and were traced back to him. That is why the feds went after him.

Not saying what the feds did was right or that I’m ok with it.