Looking for info on Pepper Spray training

[mmsteady]

Hello,
I teach unarmed self defense for civilians and would like to start incorporating less than lethal defense tools into my curriculum, specifically pepper sprays & gels. I'm hoping to find a local firearms/police/whatever instructor who has taught pepper spray/OC use who I can talk with about basics and more advanced details. I'm Boston/north shore/southern NH area. Happy to pay for someone's time. I was looking at a SabreRed instructor course, but wasn't sure it'd be worth the expense and travel distance. If anyone knows an instructor or course worth looking into, I'd appreciate a reply here or a PM!

 

[whatluck]

Hello,
I teach unarmed self defense for civilians and would like to start incorporating less than lethal defense tools into my curriculum, specifically pepper sprays & gels. I'm hoping to find a local firearms/police/whatever instructor who has taught pepper spray/OC use who I can talk with about basics and more advanced details. I'm Boston/north shore/southern NH area. Happy to pay for someone's time. I was looking at a SabreRed instructor course, but wasn't sure it'd be worth the expense and travel distance. If anyone knows an instructor or course worth looking into, I'd appreciate a reply here or a PM!

I dunno if there's really a whole class there. Pretty much only a few things you have to know. Make sure you're not down wind. Don't show it off, if you're going to use it take it out and use it immediately. 6 or 12 feet is good. Make a cross on the face over the eyes and nose. Move your feet immediately, the person is blind but can still attack, don't stay in the same place. Run away and call the cops. Or if you want to be a jerk empty the whole can into the guys face when he's on the ground, make sure to get hands and butthole.

If you've never been pepper sprayed before I suggest you expose yourself once. If you know what it feels like you'll fare better in case of accidental exposure.

I think you'd be better off using the money for some krav classes first. That will teach you how to control space, which you need to be able to use a weapon effectively, and how to have the attitude to survive a fight, which is the most important thing.

 

[mmsteady]

I dunno if there's really a whole class there. Pretty much only a few things you have to know. Make sure you're not down wind. Don't show it off, if you're going to use it take it out and use it immediately. 6 or 12 feet is good. Make a cross on the face over the eyes and nose. Move your feet immediately, the person is blind but can still attack, don't stay in the same place. Run away and call the cops. Or if you want to be a jerk empty the whole can into the guys face when he's on the ground, make sure to get hands and butthole.

If you've never been pepper sprayed before I suggest you expose yourself once. If you know what it feels like you'll fare better in case of accidental exposure.

I think you'd be better off using the money for some krav classes first. That will teach you how to control space, which you need to be able to use a weapon effectively, and how to have the attitude to survive a fight, which is the most important thing.

I teach krav maga, actually. Thats why I was reticent on the Sabre instructor course; seeing their videos there was some good basic info but some of the exercises I could see reminded me of poorly abstracted gun defense training, like people who would exclusively shoot weaver stance 25 yards & call themselves prepared. Btw Krav Maga is getting bastardized; it has a brilliant tactical & analytical toolkit for training but I see alot of schools are missing that & just dropping in boxing or bjj wholesale without understanding why krav maga was built the way it was. The founder only died in the 90s but there are local krav schools who dont even know his name.

Alot of the stuff you mentioned are things I've come across, but I dont want to miss something non-obvious that may be well known among existing pepper spray teachers. Like, how precise does the spray have to be, how long does gel take to activate when its on the face, does rain make it harder or easier, what % of the population is basically immune or may be deathly allergic, etc. I know 80% of a good, realistic seminar could come just out of the self defense principles I already know & handing out practice sprays to my training buddies & letting them go wild, but I'd like to do better than that. I've been trying to do my due diligence with resources online, but I am not confident that what I've found is based on real world experience or will account for all the common ways that things can go sideways.

 

[whatluck]

I teach krav maga, actually. Thats why I was reticent on the Sabre instructor course; seeing their videos there was some good basic info but some of the exercises I could see reminded me of poorly abstracted gun defense training, like people who would exclusively shoot weaver stance 25 yards & call themselves prepared. Btw Krav Maga is getting bastardized; it has a brilliant tactical & analytical toolkit for training but I see alot of schools are missing that & just dropping in boxing or bjj wholesale without understanding why krav maga was built the way it was. The founder only died in the 90s but there are local krav schools who dont even know his name.

Alot of the stuff you mentioned are things I've come across, but I dont want to miss something non-obvious that may be well known among existing pepper spray teachers. Like, how precise does the spray have to be, how long does gel take to activate when its on the face, does rain make it harder or easier, what % of the population is basically immune or may be deathly allergic, etc. I know 80% of a good, realistic seminar could come just out of the self defense principles I already know & handing out practice sprays to my training buddies & letting them go wild, but I'd like to do better than that. I've been trying to do my due diligence with resources online, but I am not confident that what I've found is based on real world experience or will account for all the common ways that things can go sideways.

Cool that you learned and teach krav. So you know about distance and how hard it is to get a weapon out when someone's already on top of you. To me, the big advantage to krav is when you mix it with something else like kickboxing or muay thai. thai clinch and knees are a great way to win a fight fast.

Pepper spray activates instantly. Immediately. Some people can fight through. They decide they're too pissed off for it to hurt and they can fight anyways. Maybe 1% of the population. At 6 feet is makes a cone a couple of inches wide. They throw a pretty tight spray, almost like a spit ball. Works fine in the rain. The rain probably makes it worse unless it's really driving rain. I've never heard of anyone being allergic, but if you have asthma things could go south. Quick google search says 14/10000 are allergic to hot pepper. Put the person in the recovery position and call 911. They'll go into anaphylaxis. If it's bad enough they'd need epinephrine/intubation.

 

[LakeTrout]

Holy shit dude. Spray them in the face and don’t spray you in the face on accident while they are attacking you.

 

[Matt_SERE]

Hello,
I teach unarmed self defense for civilians and would like to start incorporating less than lethal defense tools into my curriculum, specifically pepper sprays & gels.

Welcome, IF you are going to teach OC and other sprays, I would be very careful using this term in your business. Also, have a damn good insurance policy. Good luck. Matt

 

[Enzo]

Hello,
I teach unarmed self defense for civilians and would like to start incorporating less than lethal defense tools into my curriculum, specifically pepper sprays & gels. I'm hoping to find a local firearms/police/whatever instructor who has taught pepper spray/OC use who I can talk with about basics and more advanced details. I'm Boston/north shore/southern NH area. Happy to pay for someone's time. I was looking at a SabreRed instructor course, but wasn't sure it'd be worth the expense and travel distance. If anyone knows an instructor or course worth looking into, I'd appreciate a reply here or a PM!

You must have watched this posted yesterday…

 

[mmsteady]

Hadn't seen that video, seems all solid and practical. I want to do this because I've been seeing the limits of unarmed training with students that are smaller and weaker--- especially when I watch classes where primary mode of self defense is wrestling based. There should be more of an emphasis on self defense tools as part of regular curriculum.

Also, there's more people who carry pepper spray than carry guns or are in any kind of fighting training, but there's very little pepper spray training out there. I haven't seen any one-off seminars advertised anywhere locally. So, just looking for an instructor or teaching material which will help me make sure I am putting together a useful, realistic class.

 

[Matt_SERE]

I haven't seen any one-off seminars advertised anywhere locally.

How long do you think your seminar would last?
Do you have a supplier for discounts? It's going to get expensive if you supply all your students even if with water filled training aids.
Are you going to promote one brand over another? Are you going to teach all their products?
How far do you expect students to travel for a one-off seminar that is one subject and potentially very short?
Do you have a classroom and outdoor space for live firing? With water and eyewash stations?
Are you adequately medically trained for that one student that has an adverse anaphylactic reaction?
And, how much is your time worth and what size of a class is the break-even point?

 

[mmsteady]

How long do you think your seminar would last?
Do you have a supplier for discounts? It's going to get expensive if you supply all your students even if with water filled training aids.
Are you going to promote one brand over another? Are you going to teach all their products?
How far do you expect students to travel for a one-off seminar that is one subject and potentially very short?
Do you have a classroom and outdoor space for live firing? With water and eyewash stations?
Are you adequately medically trained for that one student that has an adverse anaphylactic reaction?
And, how much is your time worth and what size of a class is the break-even point?

Alot of those questions are just general things anybody offering classes needs to figure out. I've got my answers on how to run/organize the kind of class I'm going for, but its a bit separate from my goal with this thread, which is really seeking techniques & knowledge for use of pepper spray.

That said, my goal is to roll it in as a small part of an intro class and occassionally have it in regular classes. Inert trainers only, no live sprays. The majority of pepper spray owners would not go to a class to get sprayed, and anyone that wants to get sprayed and fight thru it would have the mindset to also do it on their own time. Especially for intro classes, my goal is they leave with more realistic expectations and mindset, a few immediately useful techniques, and guidelines to identify bunk & make sure any future training they do brings out the right responses under stress. A few simple questions & exercides around self defense tools would be eye opening for many ('how long does it take to get the spray out of your bag?' 'Can you get it out & have it oriented correctly under stress & with mutliple sources of distraction present?' etc). I don't plan to solely devote a seminar/class to it, but right now just want to make sure I have solid knowledge & material I can pull from & fit into the context of what I am teaching.

Army Barracks in Saugus is a good source for inert sprays. They were the one place I called that didnt want me to special order 50 at a time. They get regular deliveries from Sabre, and they were happy to fulfill if I just wanted small amounts (like 3-10) inert sprays.

 

[TJ4]

I dunno if there's really a whole class there. Pretty much only a few things you have to know. Make sure you're not down wind. Don't show it off, if you're going to use it take it out and use it immediately. 6 or 12 feet is good. Make a cross on the face over the eyes and nose. Move your feet immediately, the person is blind but can still attack, don't stay in the same place. Run away and call the cops. Or if you want to be a jerk empty the whole can into the guys face when he's on the ground, make sure to get hands and butthole.

If you've never been pepper sprayed before I suggest you expose yourself once. If you know what it feels like you'll fare better in case of accidental exposure.

I think you'd be better off using the money for some krav classes first. That will teach you how to control space, which you need to be able to use a weapon effectively, and how to have the attitude to survive a fight, which is the most important thing.

If you go from being attacked, to being in the position to shoot pepper spray up the attacker’s butthole, then it’s safe to say that you successfully turned the tables in an incredibly powerful way! Probably to the point that you are now guilty of crimes against humanity.

 

[pizzerman]

Mass Firearms School | Local Gun Range in Holliston, MA

Mass Firearms School is a gun range in Holliston, MA, that offers the Mass Basic Firearms Safety Course for your License to Carry. Apply for your MA LTC.

www.massfirearmsschool.com

 

[Len-2A Training]

A number of years ago, just after MA made it legal to carry OC without a LTC/FID, I was considering creating such a class. I did some research but never followed thru on it.

You might contact a couple of the more reputable OC companies and see what they offer for instructor courses and if they have instructor-instructors in the area.

 

[appraiser]

I know the Pelham Police department just hosted a pepper spray training course for police officers because there was a cruiser from every department in the three surrounding states at the station one day and then the next day they said it was because they were doing pepper spray training

 

[M1911]

It’s a bit more complex. There are at least 3 types of spray: 1) mist, 2) stream, and 3) foam.

Mist widens up the most, so accuracy is less important bit more likely to be ineffective in wind. Stream works better in wind but requires better aim. Stream is more likely to result in a bunch of liquid on the perps face, which actually may reduce effectiveness. The alcohol propellant encapsulates the active ingredient and can insulate the perp from the active ingredient. Foam is stickier and more likely to keep the active ingredient on the perps face, but like stream requires accurate aiming.

I had some training as a part of either LFI 1 or 2.

From a legal persp, it might make sense for you to get an instructor certification from some organization, just so that you have some certification to back up your training if needed.

 

[Lucus]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2hT7zzXwww

 

[Len-2A Training]

I know the Pelham Police department just hosted a pepper spray training course for police officers because there was a cruiser from every department in the three surrounding states at the station one day and then the next day they said it was because they were doing pepper spray training

The OP might contact Pelham PD to try to obtain contact info for the instructor that they used. If the instructor is still working in the area, he might get an opportunity to join a class.

 

[Bostonian23]

If you are teaching a class on pepper spray you need to get sprayed and the students need to get sprayed . I’ve been sprayed twice the suck doesn’t get any better…I knew going in that it would suck and the first time I got a face full….it was worse than I expected by quite a bit. I have sprayed two people and both times I got it on myself and face just by being in proximity. If I had not known that feeling and the pain level it would have been more difficult to work through that pain level and complete the tasks at hand.

Point being if you are teaching it and more so going to be carrying it you need to get a face full. Spray the students do a detail oriented task whatever you want that to be striking, creating distance, have them be actively doing something for a couple minutes .

Decon eyes with water spraying directly into eyes for 10 minutes. After that shower with baby soap to get as much off as you can and for the love of god don’t have any water run down onto your Johnson .It’s a full day of suck and partially reactivates over the next 5-12 hours.

 

[mmsteady]

It’s a bit more complex. There are at least 3 types of spray: 1) mist, 2) stream, and 3) foam.

Mist widens up the most, so accuracy is less important bit more likely to be ineffective in wind. Stream works better in wind but requires better aim. Stream is more likely to result in a bunch of liquid on the perps face, which actually may reduce effectiveness. The alcohol propellant encapsulates the active ingredient and can insulate the perp from the active ingredient. Foam is stickier and more likely to keep the active ingredient on the perps face, but like stream requires accurate aiming.

I had some training as a part of either LFI 1 or 2.

From a legal persp, it might make sense for you to get an instructor certification from some organization, just so that you have some certification to back up your training if needed.

I'd been reading the opposite re: stream vs foam. I'm also assuming gel is the same as
foam. The gel I know squirts out like the stream but its more wind resistant/less range. I read the stream was more effective because it dissolved rapidly into the mucus membranes, while the foam might stay on the face longer but will take a few more seconds to dissolve & bother the eyes. Mist was still fastest acting since it can get into eyes nose and throat all at once.

I assume with the stream and foam, alot will depend on the delivery solvent chosen by the brand.

Ive gotten alot of good leads from people in this thread, thank you!

 

[M1911]

The issue with stream is don't soak the guy’s face because more might be less effective than less. It wouldn’t surprise me if foam encapsulates the ingredients more than stream, but it is harder for the perp to wipe it off.

My main point is that there isn’t a perfect spray type; they each have advantages and disadvantages.

And for the cops, don’t tase someone after soaking them with an alcohol propellant.

 

[mmsteady]

If you are teaching a class on pepper spray you need to get sprayed and the students need to get sprayed . I’ve been sprayed twice the suck doesn’t get any better…I knew going in that it would suck and the first time I got a face full….it was worse than I expected by quite a bit. I have sprayed two people and both times I got it on myself and face just by being in proximity. If I had not known that feeling and the pain level it would have been more difficult to work through that pain level and complete the tasks at hand.

Point being if you are teaching it and more so going to be carrying it you need to get a face full. Spray the students do a detail oriented task whatever you want that to be striking, creating distance, have them be actively doing something for a couple minutes .

Decon eyes with water spraying directly into eyes for 10 minutes. After that shower with baby soap to get as much off as you can and for the love of god don’t have any water run down onto your Johnson .It’s a full day of suck and partially reactivates over the next 5-12 hours.

I don't think you're wrong, and I'd help anybody interested to go find opportunities to safely get sprayed, but doing live spray safely and correctly is not what I have the resources or time for right now. Its also a complete non-starter for an intro class demographic; for instance I see interest in the civilian tactical crowd for classes with shock knives but I don't see that group lining up to pay to get sprayed, either. I think there is still alot of valuable work to do with just inert sprays & general concepts of carrying/using self defense tools. I think letting students know 1)anything they use can be taken & used against them (& its pretty easy for that to happen) and 2) getting backspray is likely & their loss of function will be worse if they've never been sprayed themselves, will be good to help students make the decisions best for them, whether they seek more training or decide to carry something else or nothing.

 

[M1911]

Mist is more likely to result in backspray than stream or foam.

 

[whatluck]

If you go from being attacked, to being in the position to shoot pepper spray up the attacker’s butthole, then it’s safe to say that you successfully turned the tables in an incredibly powerful way! Probably to the point that you are now guilty of crimes against humanity.

You run up you get done up

 

[whatluck]

You must have watched this posted yesterday…

Does anyone else worry about Ayoob's shooting? He looks like he would always slice it to the left about 20'.

 

[commodon]

If you've never been pepper sprayed before I suggest you expose yourself once. If you know what it feels like you'll fare better in case of accidental exposure.

Agree with everything you wrote. Especially the above. Such is why this was suggested in academy thirty plus years ago to ensure we knew what to expect when it happens. At least that's what I remember.

Speaking for myself, I remember an accidental discharge as I was sitting by myself in a cruiser (late 80's Crown Vic'). I turned and the can on my left side somehow "leaked" by hitting against the door's armrest. Before I knew it my eyes were red, swollen, I was coughing, etc. That was fun, not. I learned my lesson to wear it on my right side that day going forward.

Good times...

@Len-2A Training did you ever receive the same "suggestion" when at Foxboro?

 

[M1911]

Does anyone else worry about Ayoob's shooting? He looks like he would always slice it to the left about 20'.

I took LFI 1 and 2 from him back in the day. He demoed every drill and we shot out to 50 yards. At least back in the day I can tell you that Ayoob could shoot. He wasn’t a grand master like Ben Stoeger or Mike Seeklander (who I also took couses from), but Ayoob could certainly shoot quite well.

He’s an old man now, so I’m sure the infirmities of age are catching up to him.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Agree with everything you wrote. Especially the above. Such is why this was suggested in academy thirty plus years ago to ensure we knew what to expect when it happens. At least that's what I remember.

Speaking for myself, I remember an accidental discharge as I was sitting by myself in a cruiser (late 80's Crown Vic'). I turned and the can on my left side somehow "leaked" by hitting against the door's armrest. Before I knew it my eyes were red, swollen, I was coughing, etc. That was fun, not. I learned my lesson to wear it on my right side that day going forward.

Good times...

@Len-2A Training did you ever receive the same "suggestion" when at Foxboro?

They lined us up in the gym and sprayed just over our heads, so that we'd get the effect without dealing with drowning the eyes of 30+ students. Only my Lt. was overcome, the rest of us were affected for a short while.

Next day I dropped by the academy to speak with Cliff (director, friend and my neighbor) when the poor janitor walked in complaining about getting overcome while sweeping up the gym. The OC doesn't "go away", only the propellant vaporizes. That was the last time they did the OC class indoors!

 

[commodon]

They lined us up in the gym and sprayed just over our heads, so that we'd get the effect without dealing with drowning the eyes of 30+ students. Only my Lt. was overcome, the rest of us were affected for a short while.

Next day I dropped by the academy to speak with Cliff (director, friend and my neighbor) when the poor janitor walked in complaining about getting overcome while sweeping up the gym. The OC doesn't "go away", only the propellant vaporizes. That was the last time they did the OC class indoors!

That was before my time. We had our taste outside

 

[Len-2A Training]

That was before my time. We had our taste outside

1987 or 1988 IIRC. You were lucky!

 

[M1911]

Next day I dropped by the academy to speak with Cliff (director, friend and my neighbor) when the poor janitor walked in complaining about getting overcome while sweeping up the gym. The OC doesn't "go away", only the propellant vaporizes. That was the last time they did the OC class indoors!

Whoops!