Keeping things cold in a long term down grid scenario.

[Silverguns6]

Its summer, its hot as hell. When the power goes out for more than a month, what could one do to keep liquids, some foods and medications which require refrigeration cold?
IF
-you have no generator or alt source of power
-No way to obtain ice or make ice
-Winter is over 3 months away.

What I was thinking about was this:
Disposable ice packs are comprised of a sealed liquid packet and Urea inside the main bag.
What if...
One could buy:
-Urea
-a mechanical vacuum sealer
-5 gallon bags and 2 gallon bags

And make their own large ice packs which can be put in the fridge or cooler.

My uncle has diabetes and needs insulin, I don't know what he does when the power goes out but his insulin needs to be refrigerated.

What can be done to create "alternative refrigeration"?

-Dave

 

[Robert J]

Depending on type some insulin are stable for a month with no cooling a year in the fridge. it depends on the formula

 

[coastie]

Evaporative cooler? If you are near a body of water, just seal the product and put it in the water to keep it cool. We used to do this with our milk, eggs and beer etc at camp. Worked well enough. If you have a well you could pull the pump and lower lower a small package down into the water.

If it was me I would look at one of those small 12 volt coolers and run it off your vehicles for the medicine. Everything else either eat or preserve.

I dont know how well the making your own cold paks would work. It probably would take quite a bit of the ammonium nitrate to last a whole month and purchasing that isnt cheap. never mind the potential red flags. Test it out. Take a couple of commercial ones and throw them in a small cooler. Run a thermometer probe into it and see how long it maintains at what ever temp you want. It might work if you insultate the crap out of it but it would probably only work for the meds as cooling much more than a tiny space is going to take a lot.

 

[gscott]

Don't know about meds. We have a brook near by that runs cold even in the summer. I dug a hole lined it with rocks and put a grate over the top. Wrapping stuff up to keep the water out is a pain but stuff stays cold. I tried sinking a 5 gallon bucket with a lid but it didn't work well the air inside might have acted like insulation.

 

[Another_David]

natural gas or propane powered refrigerator comes to mind

otherwise, short term just a gallon jug in the freezer full of frozen water is a great thing to have

put in cooler in a basement and it'll last a few days

dig hole in basement floor for dry root type storage. that might get it to the high 50's, low 60's?

EDIT:

Also, I don't know about insulin, but some injectable drugs can be purchased as a powder in a vile and mixed with bacteriostatic water at home. the liquid then has to be stored chilled, but the dry powder typically has a published expiration of about a year.

 

[economist]

Eventually winter arrives. But I like the idea of a small to medium propane refrigerator. Just stock some propane (no worries about storage duration with the propane and those RV refrigerators will run a long time on very little gas). Actually, this is just one way an RV of some sort can be really useful for a few months of off-grid comfort. Nothing lasts forever, of course.

 

[Chet0729]

Propane refrigerator would probably be the best . Personally I think if the power is off for a month keeping things cool will be the least of your issues.

 

[Andy in NH]

If you have an operational motor vehicle you have a functional generator.

Just get a 12 volt refrigerator and maybe keep some extra gas stored.

This is a smaller one, but they come in many sizes:

You could also make up a small solar kit with a couple of deep cycle batteries and a 12 v refrigerator as a back up. You would have to experiment to see how long the batteries would run the refrigerator before being recharged by the panel.

 

[Another_David]

If you have an operational motor vehicle you have a functional generator.

Just get a 12 volt refrigerator and maybe keep some extra gas stored.

This is a smaller one, but they come in many sizes:

You could also make up a small solar kit with a couple of deep cycle batteries and a 12 v refrigerator as a back up. You would have to experiment to see how long the batteries would run the refrigerator before being recharged by the panel.

Have you ever used one of those?

I have my doubts.

 

[Andy in NH]

Have you ever used one of those?

No, not the one pictured - that was just a quick Google image grab.

But I have seen and used larger units in campers and RVs.

 

[Lowbird]

Another one for the propane fridge. Running a month or more on a 20lb tank is nice. Just have multiple tanks. 20, 100, etc.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

Put it between my wife's legs...

 

[Silverguns6]

Where can I buy a propane fridge and what do they cost?
I can't do a root cellar but what about if I take a 5 gallon bucket, fill it with bottles of water, put some rocks in it, tie it to a tree and let it sit in a deeper spot of the stream right near my townhouse? It constantly has flow and there is a pool which is atleast 4' deep less than 500yards from my door.

-Dave

 

[coastie]

Talk to RV places about propane fridges. They might know of an RV salvage yard where you can get one or have an old one out back. Google is your friend.

If you can get the 5 gal bucket to sink then that would work fine. Try it out and let us know how it works.

If you are really serious about the insulin storage issues ask your uncle what kind he is on and if it really needs to be refrigerated. Have him ask his doctor what he should do in an emergency power outage. Use Hurricane Sandy as the example of no power damaged infrastructure.

 

[jtorbin88]

You can make ice by puting fertilizer and water in one bowl and then puting a metal bowl inside that bowl filled with water. Works the same as cold packs ammonium nitrate.

 

[Palladin]

power out for a month? you're going to be expending ammo, keeping people from stealing what you have

 

[Twigg]

If you have the space, dig a root cellar.

Bear in mind home canned produce and meats can last a year or more at "room temp", without benifit of a root cellar
We are currently eating items I canned last year.

Other wise I'd go with a three way (110ac / 12Vdc / Propane) RV refridgerator, propane for the short to medium term as it will go fast. How long depands on the size of the fridge and the size of the gas bottle. 12 VDC for long term with PV panel, small wind turbine charging a battery bank.

 

[Golddiggie]

If you have a generator, you could make a wood gasification unit to fuel it. If done well/right, you can power a good amount from that generator.

 

[Bob J]

If you have an operational motor vehicle you have a functional generator.

Just get a 12 volt refrigerator and maybe keep some extra gas stored.

This is a smaller one, but they come in many sizes:

You could also make up a small solar kit with a couple of deep cycle batteries and a 12 v refrigerator as a back up. You would have to experiment to see how long the batteries would run the refrigerator before being recharged by the panel.

This was my thought as well.... The one I have is a solid state peltier rig that can either cool or heat depending on how it is set up.... Power consumption is very low.... A standard 12V automotive or deep cycle boat battery should run it for a considerable time.... I also have a goal zero Escape-150-Adventure-Kit escape adventure kit with an extra power cell..... Includes a compact solar array and is set up so I can use one power cell while charging the other.... A peltier cooler will consume much less power than a standard compressor fridge set up and should be well within the power range for one of these cells....

 

[je25ff]

I can't offer anything for the insulin question, but you can only keep things so cool. You can use a basement or other such location. The key is salt or smoking food. Since salt will probably not be available, the best thing you can do is to try to dehydrate any food you have to keep it from spoiling. I bought pounds and pounds of salt, but it won't last in an extended scenario. Best thing to do is invest in some kind of smokehouse.

 

[Big_Red]

Put it between my wife's legs...

Hey now!

 

[Silverguns6]

You can make ice by puting fertilizer and water in one bowl and then puting a metal bowl inside that bowl filled with water. Works the same as cold packs ammonium nitrate.

Now that is something neat and pretty much just what I wanted to know.
I will still be looking into a propane fridge, I also do know how to make a wood gasification system. I have an old civil defense/FEMA document on making them during a wide spread petroleum shortage. If anyone would like a copy, I have it in PDF form as well as paper. PM me.

 

[lancecolonel]

You can make ice by puting fertilizer and water in one bowl and then puting a metal bowl inside that bowl filled with water. Works the same as cold packs ammonium nitrate.

i would like this recipe please.

Now that is something neat and pretty much just what I wanted to know.
I will still be looking into a propane fridge, I also do know how to make a wood gasification system. I have an old civil defense/FEMA document on making them during a wide spread petroleum shortage. If anyone would like a copy, I have it in PDF form as well as paper. PM me.

i would like a copy of this as well.
thanks.

 

[RLBreton]

Alternative Refrigeration - Three Methods of Passive Cooling

I found this--some interesting ideas here. YMMV.

 

[coastie]

Making a working wood gasification unit is a lot harder than it seems. One of the critical aspects is the type of wood, how dry etc. The one we messed with crudded up the engine something fierce. I am not sure that the energy expended cutting the wood, drying the wood, setting up the system is worth the return. It would definitely be something you want to build and master now rather than post disaster. If you want an interesting refrigerator look up a Crosley Icyball. I have been looking for a working one for a while and an contemplating trying to fab my own.

 

[jtorbin88]

i would like this recipe please.


i would like a copy of this as well.
thanks.

http://m.voices.yahoo.com/how-ice-using-fertilizer-5422755.html

 

[Kevin_NH]

I believe the propane fridge is probably the easiest and simplest solution, but not the cheapest.

A peltier cooler will consume much less power than a standard compressor fridge set up and should be well within the power range for one of these cells....

While a thermoelectric cooler (Peltier) draws less peak watts, they are nowhere near as efficient as a compressor, will use more energy per day than an equivalent conventional fridge.

Peltier makes sense when power consumption is less important than size, noise, lack of moving parts, or durability Plus it's a lot more "cool" than stodgy ancient compressor technology.

 

[Hiltonizer]

Propane/Solar Freezer ---> Ice Box ---> Winter ---> Ice House

 

[PineTar]

If you have time, they were doing this in Persia ~400BCE
Yakhchal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

I don't know that I can give any specific ideas here, but refrigeration is sort of a neat topic.

The problem with refrigeration is that it is unnatural.

Energy wants to flow from where it is most concentrated to where it is least concentrated. That means everything cold warms up and everything warm cools down.

I can make things hot by releasing stored energy in a small area, but to make things cold I have to remove energy and that is tricky.

The easy way is to find something that is already (still) cold and use that. This is what a cold spring or ice houses would give you. This works great if you have something that is already cold and if it is cold enough for what you want to do. If you want something at 40 degrees and your spring is at 50 degrees, this isn't going to work. Also, once your cold thing warms up, it is over. You need another cold thing.

The next most method is evaporation. Liquid water will evaporate. Evaporation takes energy. The energy has to come from somewhere so it comes from the liquid water and whatever it is touching. How much energy it removes depends on how much water you are evaporating. How much water you can evaporate depends on the surface area of the water and the humidity of the air. Since the air can only hold so much water the closer it is to "full" (100% humidity) the less water you will evaporate. This make evaporative coolers work well in dry environments like deserts, but no so well in wet environments such as the coast. An evaporative cooler can not get any colder than the dew point of the air. This means that in the Northeast in July, don't expect to get lower than the mid 60s or so.

Now we get to chemical cooling. When mixed with water some chemicals will become colder than their surroundings. Ammonium Nitrate (NH4NO3) is the most common. When dissolved in water it gets quite cold. The problem is this is a one shot trick. Once the Ammonium Nitrate is dissolved in water it has done all it will do for cooling.

Now we have mechanical cooling. This is what the A/C in your car or house and your refrigerator use. If you compress a gas it gets hot. If you let a gas expand it will get cooler. So, if you compress a gas, keep it compressed and let it cool back to ambient temperatures, then let it expand, it will end up cooler than ambient. In practice there are some phase changes in there too, but you get the idea.

The propane powered refrigerator is a strange beast. It is part evaporative, part mechanical, and part chemical cooler that continuously recycles itself. Inside you have ammonia dissolved in water. The water is heated until the ammonia boils out. The now ammonia free water goes one way inside the unit while the ammonia gas goes another. The hot ammonia gas goes through pipes to cool, then is allowed to expand through a nozzle. This make the ammonia cool enough to become a liquid. The liquid extracts heat from inside the refrigerator to boil back to a gas. The gas is then adsorbed by the ammonia free water we made back in the first step, making room for more ammonia gas to boil off. The ammonia water is now heated again to drive off the ammonia, etc.

If you are trying to keep just a few vials of insulin cold, might I suggest some tests with simple thermos bottles. An icepack (instant or otherwise) tucked into a good stainless steel vacuum bottle with the insulin vials in the center might last a surprisingly long time especially if you take other measures to keep the thermos itself cool.

I don't know how well this would work, but if an instant ice pack in a thermos was able to keep the required temperature for let's say two days then 180 packs would buy you a year. At a dollar a pack (u-line, other on-line retailers) that is still only $180 per year.