It's a whole new Corps...

[DaveB]

I suppose they use GPS instead of Map and compass and incense instead of CS.

I was in Parris Island in 1993. No crucible, no sensitivity training, no cry babies! Just hard charging, motivated, Drill Instructors and recruits. PT in the sand pit and quarter deck. First time in the pit sucked! The last time was hilarious. Mental and physical toughness! I would not have it any other way.

Quantico The Basic School 1997. Last all male class. No crucible, no sensitivity training, no cry babies!

Rule 1: Suck it up!
Rule2: See Rule 1!

Bring back R. Lee Ermey

 

[Cluster F]

I recently saw something on the new Army Basic. Its so funny. They are trying to up their retention and up the amount that joins. They now focus more on team building instead of yelling or raising their voices. They also allow cell phones now to have time to call loved ones. The funniest is they now have the chow hall all you can eat. WTF haha. Im proud to be a Marine! SEMPER FI!

 

[SigSlayer]

whats a map and compass? the only thing I ever used was a BFT

jk...

 

[ochmude]

whats a map and compass? the only thing I ever used was a BFT

jk...

LMAO!!!! Good old BFT even replaced radios for most of our convoy work. Free text FIPR messages were all we ever used since we were NEVER within radio range of a FOB.

 

[Andy in NH]

... in 95 and around that time "hazing" was being seriously frowned upon.

That's when a lot of the so called "traditions" were heavily scrutinized.

Years ago, "pinning" chevrons and blood stripes was a good-natured way of establishing fellowship and camaraderie. The idea was that a Marine had worked hard to earn the next rank and that "pinning" the chevron on would ensure that the Marine kept the rank. (Sometimes keeping the rank was harder than earning it)

But the practice often devolved into outright physical abuse. Newly promoted Marines would "walk the gauntlet" of those who were of equal or higher rank and be pummeled in the shoulders from both sides.

In 1995, I was present at an NCO call with the FMF LANT SgtMaj. He gave the NCOs a talk about the new hazing prohibitions. After the talk I approached the Sgt Maj and asked him some detailed questions; Did he mean no more push ups for being late to formation or for not having you boots shined? No more sand bag PT for insubordinate non-rates? He said it was all to stop.

He went further and explained to me that there were numerous Marines who had been medically discharged after "running the gauntlet" because they had pinched nerves in their shoulders. He also told the that one unit's "welcome initiation" involved duct taping a newly joined Marine to a chair and urinating on him. These and other occurrences are what led to the drastic changes in hazing regulations.

However, Commanding Officers could still authorize certain physical punishments if they related to the infraction. As an example, certain training centers could still award "mountain push ups" (a push up with feet elevated) for safety infractions while mountaineering.

IPT (Incentive Physical Training) is a great tool for developing the mental and physical toughness of a Marine when applied correctly.

The beat downs that resulted from overzealous "pinning" of chevrons and blood stripes did nothing to enhance individual and / or unit readiness.

 

[jasons]

Years ago, "pinning" chevrons and blood stripes was a good-natured way of establishing fellowship and camaraderie.
.....
But the practice often devolved into outright physical abuse.

So instead of being good leaders and teaching young Marines the proper way to honor tradition, the practice was "outlawed" and found it's way into supply closets and tool rooms where it really did get abusive. From there it morphed into "calling a boot Devil Dog is hazing" and "making PFC Lateforduty do a few push ups is hazing" and "junk on the bunk inspections are hazing" and "shell back ceremonies are hazing" and on and on and on.

I would argue that those things did enhance individual and unit readiness and esprit de corps, or at least they did for me and my unit. (But then again we had really good leaders....)

 

[Andy in NH]

So instead of being good leaders and teaching young Marines the proper way to honor tradition....

All it took was a few bad apples to go way over the line.

--------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I didn't explain my point well enough or maybe I am misinterpreting your reply, but how does inflicting a permanent disability on a Marine enhance individual and unit readiness and esprit?

 

[Admin]

All it took was a few bad apples to go way over the line.

--------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I didn't explain my point well enough or maybe I am misinterpreting your reply, but how does inflicting a permanent disability on a Marine enhance individual and unit readiness and esprit?

I think what Jason is saying Andy is instead of outright banning the tradition that has turned in to more torture than a right of passage, leaders might have been better served setting limits on what can be done.

You get promoted the guys who pin on your rank get to hit them home, and if you earn blood stripes again the guys who pin on CPL get to give you a charlie horse and leave it at that. Same goes for wings and other pinned on chest awards. I think completely banning it makes us a bunch of pussies like the Army.

 

[MARINE96]

I think what Jason is saying Andy is instead of outright banning the tradition that has turned in to more torture than a right of passage, leaders might have been better served setting limits on what can be done.

You get promoted the guys who pin on your rank get to hit them home, and if you earn blood stripes again the guys who pin on CPL get to give you a charlie horse and leave it at that. Same goes for wings and other pinned on chest awards. I think completely banning it makes us a bunch of pussies like the Army.

Well said.

 

[Andy in NH]

I think what Jason is saying Andy is instead of outright banning the tradition that has turned in to more torture than a right of passage, leaders might have been better served setting limits on what can be done.

I see now that Jason and I were making the same point. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[jasons]

I think what Jason is saying Andy is instead of outright banning the tradition that has turned in to more torture than a right of passage, leaders might have been better served setting limits on what can be done.

You get promoted the guys who pin on your rank get to hit them home, and if you earn blood stripes again the guys who pin on CPL get to give you a charlie horse and leave it at that. Same goes for wings and other pinned on chest awards. I think completely banning it makes us a bunch of pussies like the Army.

That is exactly what I was trying to say. The leadership let a few meatheads take away traditions that gave Marines identity because they were too lazy or ineffective to deal with the meatheads. To be clear I'm not only talking about blood stripes - the whole "Devil Dog" thing, NCOs making you do push ups for being a shitbird, etc., have also been banned as hazing. It's to the point where commands are (evidently) afraid to do JOB inspections because it might look like hazing. I mean come on.....

(And really, of the thousands of Marines to get blood stripes over the years how many walked away with a "permanent disability?")

 

[Admin]

(And really, of the thousands of Marines to get blood stripes over the years how many walked away with a "permanent disability?")

Does it matter? If you're going to go to medical because your buddies beat you up a bit you don't need to be in. GTFO

 

[jasons]

Does it matter? If you're going to go to medical because your buddies beat you up a bit you don't need to be in. GTFO

Yep. I'm very suspicious of this whole "permanent disability from blood stripes" thing. Sure, maybe one or two really did but I really doubt that it was that widespread, and where it did happen the meatheads that took it too far should have been handled by their leaders rather than allowing the pussification of the entire Corps.

As I recall the whole backlash on hazing started after that home video of a jump wing pinning ceremony made it onto CNN and the mothers of America freaked out. Nobody got hurt but the MOA saw blood and crude behavior and freaked. "Not my Johnny!"

 

[Andy in NH]

(And really, of the thousands of Marines to get blood stripes over the years how many walked away with a "permanent disability?")

Come on dude, you know the deal - all it takes is one and the knee-jerkers start double timing. Same with DUIs and MVAs coming back from 96's - rack up a couple of those and the whole regiment goes into a safety stand down.

Yep. I'm very suspicious of this whole "permanent disability from blood stripes" thing.

Just to clarify, the Sgt Maj said the injuries were to the shoulders / arms resulting from running the gauntlet. Your description of "meat heads" was accurate. They lined the kid up between the two biggest guys in the company and they punched him simultaneously in each shoulder.

Maybe the Sgt Maj lied to me? Maybe the kid was a non-hacker and faked the medical? Either way, the snowball started rolling and here we are today.

I'm not trying to disagree with you over if the traditions should have been banned or not. I'm just offered some details on the how / why it happened.

 

[jasons]

I would never question the word of any Marine (especially a Sgt Maj) without a really good reason. I'll concede that there were probably a few medical discharges, though I'd bet that of the few most were pansies looking for an excuse to go home to mommy rather than legit medical issues (either way it's not really important to the larger picture.)

My only point was that over-reacting by banning everything that could be even remotely considered "hazing" was a leadership failure in my opinion. They took the easy (but ineffective) way out and that's not what good leaders do.

 

[TheWookie]

I think the whole hazing issue really reflects society; we are getting softer. Hazing rituals in the Corps can be fun, rich with camaraderie, and memorable. But, I will also say that some Marines take it too far. For instance, the Marine that took over my platoon in Greece was eventually busted down and kicked out for taking things too far. So, I also think that some hazing can be bad, counter-productive, and dangerous. It doesn't have to end, they just have to monitor it: don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

I don't find it hard to believe that a few Marines (perhaps they were limpdicks to begin with?) have been med discharged because of hazing rituals, but I think it's the exception and not the rule.


It's a tough subject being on the outside as I am now. Ultimately, I look at the final product that the Marines of 2010 are putting out, and even though the ROE's don't help, when today's Marine is in the fight -- they are just as good, and probably even more lethal and effective than the Marines before them.

I'm glad I'm out, cause I'd be pinning and sticking the Devil Dogs around me.

 

[crazymjb]

I believe your initial qualification must be with Irons, but my qual this past weekend was with our RCOs.

With regard to BUIS, the most recent guys who were deployed I talked to said they issue out the carry handles as a back up but most guys throw them in their packs until the end of the deployment.

There will be nearly infinite variations from unit to unit and MOS to MOS. Policy is rarely followed to the "T." On paper, drill instructors aren't even permitted to swear or demean a recruit. Do you REALLY think that doesn't happen as the norm?

There is a difference between constructive and destructive hazing. Again, this will vary unit to unit, but the treeline isn't going anywhere. Also, there is nothing wrong with Marines giving classes on proper construction of a fighting hole.

Mike

 

[jasons]

I believe your initial qualification must be with Irons, but my qual this past weekend was with our RCOs.

How'd you shoot?

 

[crazymjb]

224

Mike

 

[jasons]

Nice! Congrats.

 

[Andy in NH]

... but my qual this past weekend was with our RCOs.

Full distance or the short course?

How did you accommodate the fact that the RCO reticle is set in meters and the KD course is fired in yards?

What portion of the reticle did you use as a point of aim at each yard line?

How did you accomplish dope changes for wind calls on the RCO? Did you leave the adjuster caps off?

(sorry for the interrogation - using the RCO for requal was just an idea when I got out and these were many of the queries we discussed and sought solutions for - I'm just wondering how it turned out.)

 

[crazymjb]

1. Full distance course

2. The range had Meter and Yard markings, I believe we shot from the meter points. The Marine Corps provides a separate scoring guideline for that, I believe there is a 4 point handicap.

3.

4. Were given a printout of how much to offset the reticle at X range with Y wind speed. There was ZERO wind on the range on Saturday though.

My personal opinion... they should continue to require requal with Irons and definitely keep a closer eye on the integrity of the guys pulling the pits. I don't think my target was helped out based off the first shooter not doing too great but it wouldn't surprise me if not everyone earned their score. Also I wish I could be 100% confident that I shot what I shot. That said, a lot of guys had not shot the rifle range in 4 to 5 years and 90 rounds of practice really isn't fair.

Mike

 

[Andy in NH]

Thanks for the info.

My personal opinion... they should continue to require requal with Irons...

The last time I took a Bn to requal, we shot the KD course with irons. Then the very next week I had them re shoot the KD course with RCOs. I also added a 10 round string of fire at the 600 yard line. Not for their composite score, but more to get familiar with the RCO. We kept score, but only for bragging rights within the Bn and to see who needed some additional training.

The week after that was the Regt change of command and the Regt Sgt Maj wanted all the carrying handles put back on the rifles for "uniformity", which was madness after zeroing the RCOs. Thankfully, my Bn CO and the Regt Gunner agreed with keeping the rifles as they were and the Marines marched with RCOs mounted.

...keep a closer eye on the integrity of the guys pulling the pits.

At Stone Bay, the practice was to shift the first ten (or some random number) target pullers off the little end, shift the whole pit down and put those ten on the big end. That way you couldn't hook your buddy up if you knew what target number and relay he was on.

 

[Admin]

At Stone Bay, the practice was to shift the first ten (or some random number) target pullers off the little end, shift the whole pit down and put those ten on the big end. That way you couldn't hook your buddy up if you knew what target number and relay he was on.

We always did that on qual day at Edson range.