IRLP

C-pher said:
So, talking over a repeater is out? I can understand this concept with HF. But with 2m and 70cm, the only real way to talk over distance is through repeaters. Why is talking from a local repeater to another person OK. But talking into a repeater, then out one across the world any different? No Different than a networked set of repeaters...it's just that this networked set of repeaters are all over the US, or world....instead of just networked across MA or RI.
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First off, nothing is "out". Just because I personally don't consider it to be true to the spirit of amateur radio as a hobby, doesn't mean it's not to be used. If you use it and enjoy it, that's completely cool with me. Second, using a repeater still means that the communication is being done wirelessly (excluding feedline and power cables and such). The primary medium that the transmission passes though is open air, or empty space in the case of EME. With IRLP, the primary medium is network cable. Refer to the picture below.

irlpdiagram.jpg

Forgive the crudeness of my illustration. I just pulled something off the internet and drew on it. But as you can see, most of the transmission path isn't even remotely related to radio propagation. I think that misses the point of what amateur radio is supposed to be.
 
R1ch said:
People at each end are using their radios to communicate with each other. They have no knowledge of how the 'worm hole' was implemented, they just know that it works. Others have provide and maintain the radio worm hole for them to use.
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If people have no knowledge of how the "worm hole" was implemented and just know that it works, why are they amateur radio operators? Why not just pick up a cell phone? What's the point of getting a ham license if you just want to ragchew without wondering about how the equipment and the infrastructure works? I seem to recall something from part 97 about "continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art" and "encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communications and technical phases of the art" and "expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts". I haven't been licensed for years and years like many hams have, but from what little experience I do have I believe that part of the point of being a ham is actually wanting to know why stuff works.
 
So I guess you're against Packet and SSTV and what not?

And I'm not trying to be a dick...I'm new to radio...and I'm trying to figure out what everyone thinks. For me, I'm a techie. I love gagets...that's why I went out of Enviro Engineering and into IT/IS. I think that it's just very cool...so...when I found all these cool gadgety ways to talk with my license...I find that it's cool.

It's why I bought a TNC, it's why I think that IRLP is cool. The only thing is that your transmission goes over the net to another repeater. You still need a radio on each end to talk... That's all I'm saying.

I understand why you guys don't think that it's radio. And I do know that if the SHTF this stuff is useless...but unlike using the PC to talk...I'm still getting practical experience because I still need my radio to use these cool things.
 
ochmude said:
I seem to recall something from part 97 about "continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art" and "encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communications and technical phases of the art" and "expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts". I haven't been licensed for years and years like many hams have, but from what little experience I do have I believe that part of the point of being a ham is actually wanting to know why stuff works.
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So, from that I could gather that using radio for other things like IRLP or Packet and other Digital modes are "advancing skills in both the communications and technical phases." As the word Technical would, at least to me, mean just that...technical. Which is moving toward solid state radios. Using other means to further the use of Armature Radio.

Other wise everyone should still be talking in Simplex...using tubes to get their radios to work...never moving forward...
 
From what I know about packet and SSTV, no, I'm not against them at all. It has nothing to do with the format of the information (voice, cw, data, imagery, etc.) that is being transmitted, but rather the method of transmission. It's like the difference between radiotelegraphy and wired telegraphy. If you are using a straight key hooked up to a radio, that's amateur radio. If you're using a straight key hooked up to a wire, that's a telegraph.

I understand that IRLP uses radios, but like I've mentioned before, I see a difference between just using a radio and Amateur Radio as a concept. Amateur Radio is a concept to me, not just a method of communication. It's about being inventive and resourceful to get your signal out there to be received by others. If you're only able to talk to people in your own community you can increase your power, modify or simply raise the height of your antenna, or lower your frequency to allow the signal to travel further. Those are all "ham radio" solutions. Using the internet to transmit your signal further by way of hardwired networks is not a "ham radio" solution. BTW, I know you're not trying to be a dick. I'm not either. It's just a friendly debate from my perspective [grin].
 
ochmude said:
It's about being inventive and resourceful to get your signal out there to be received by others.
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Wait...so using other technology mixed in with Amateur radio...like connecting Ham to the Internet isn't "inventive?" These are new ways to get your signal out there that wasn't there years before. You are still treating it as radio. You still have to follow the same rules of amateur radio that you do when you're talking on your local repeater to local folks. You still have to follow the same third party traffic rules as you would if you were on HF. It's just done using 2m and 70cm...not 10, 20 or 160m.
 
ochmude said:
First off, nothing is "out". Just because I personally don't consider it to be true to the spirit of amateur radio as a hobby, doesn't mean it's not to be used. If you use it and enjoy it, that's completely cool with me. Second, using a repeater still means that the communication is being done wirelessly (excluding feedline and power cables and such). The primary medium that the transmission passes though is open air, or empty space in the case of EME. With IRLP, the primary medium is network cable. Refer to the picture below.

irlpdiagram.jpg

Forgive the crudeness of my illustration. I just pulled something off the internet and drew on it. But as you can see, most of the transmission path isn't even remotely related to radio propagation. I think that misses the point of what amateur radio is supposed to be.
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Bingo
 
C-pher said:
So I guess you're against Packet and SSTV and what not?

And I'm not trying to be a dick..
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Sure you are. You may disagree with our position, but the concept is quite easy to grasp. Saying things like "then digital modes don't count" doesn't have anything to do with what we are saying.

IRLP and echolink are great technology. They can also be entertaining. However, cheating your signal across the internet is not the same thing as bouncing it where you want to go. Any idiot can talk over the internet.
 
C-pher said:
Wait...so using other technology mixed in with Amateur radio...like connecting Ham to the Internet isn't "inventive?" These are new ways to get your signal out there that wasn't there years before. You are still treating it as radio. You still have to follow the same rules of amateur radio that you do when you're talking on your local repeater to local folks. You still have to follow the same third party traffic rules as you would if you were on HF. It's just done using 2m and 70cm...not 10, 20 or 160m.
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It's inventive, but it's outside the scope of amateur radio. If you call me on your 2m and give me a message, I write it down, board a plane, fly to Europe, pull out my 2m and call someone and read the message, you did not just make a wireless radio transmission to that person. If you use the same process but replace me flying to Europe with sending the message over IRLP, you still did not just make a wireless radio transmission. That is my primary point of contention. There is an extensive long distance wired infrastructure that IRLP relies on to transmit signals.
 
Martlet said:
Any idiot can talk over the internet.
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But not on IRLP. You have to be licensed, you have to follow the same rules, and you still need to have a radio. So, while it's "cheating" it still has to be done using your radio.

I'm not sure why you keep throwing in Echolink. This thread has nothing to do with Echolink. This thread is about IRLP. I agree with you both on Echolink. You don't need a radio to do it...yes, you can do it over your computer into a repeater....but you can do it from Computer to Computer...I can do that on Yahoo Messenger. At least with IRLP, you still need a radio on both ends even if it's going over the Internet.
 
ochmude said:
It's inventive, but it's outside the scope of amateur radio. If you call me on your 2m and give me a message, I write it down, board a plane, fly to Europe, pull out my 2m and call someone and read the message, you did not just make a wireless radio transmission to that person. If you use the same process but replace me flying to Europe with sending the message over IRLP, you still did not just make a wireless radio transmission. That is my primary point of contention. There is an extensive long distance wired infrastructure that IRLP relies on to transmit signals.
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That I understand...but...I would still need to get a variance or what have you to transmit in that country. IF...I was working a traffic net...and someone was passing traffic to Europe...and I piped up on the net and said...."I'll take that traffic...I'm heading out to Europe on vacation." Then when I land, set up, join a traffic net and pass it along...that wouldn't be in the sprit of radio?

Just wondering...

And Martlet, there's a difference between playing Devil's Advocate and being a dick.
 
C-pher said:
And Martlet, there's a difference between playing Devil's Advocate and being a dick.
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Sometimes there isn't.

With IRLP, you're using the internet to pass your transmission. You aren't transmitting antenna to antenna, or even antenna to antenna to antenna. Again, if you think it's in the same spirit, submit a WAS application with all your contacts on 2m. See what happens.
 
Dude...I don't submit contacts on 2m anyway..it's not any different to me. So I wouldn't go for an award for 2m. I understand what you're saying...but you are trasmitting from my antenna, to the antenna of the repeater....to the net...to an antenna of the repeater to the antenna of the other radio.
 
C-pher said:
Dude...I don't submit contacts on 2m anyway..it's not any different to me. So I wouldn't go for an award for 2m. I understand what you're saying...but you are trasmitting from my antenna, to the antenna of the repeater....to the net...to an antenna of the repeater to the antenna of the other radio.
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I know how it works.
 
Martlet said:
Again, if you think it's in the same spirit, submit a WAS application with all your contacts on 2m. See what happens.
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I'm not saying that it's the same sprit. I'm saying that it's inovative, and a differnt way to use the radio. And...I think that it's cool. LOL! I'm sure that when I'm on HF, and I can do the stuff that you can...I'll feel different about long distance contacts. But, right now, the only way for me to make contacts outside of my little area is using IRLP.
 
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