Interesting read of NH use of force laws

[dcmdon]

Here is a header web page. Great stuff for anyone who intends to carry a firearm in NH
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/NHTOC/NHTOC-LXII-627.htm

Here it talks about justification:
Here: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXII/627/627-4.htm

1) NH has several statements describing a duty to retreat, but then says this, which is effectively a stand your ground statement:

A person is not justified in using deadly force on another to defend himself or herself or a third person from deadly force by the other if he or she knows that he or she and the third person can, with complete safety. . . . Retreat from the encounter, except that he or she is not required to retreat if he or she is within his or her dwelling, its curtilage, or anywhere he or she has a right to be, and was not the initial aggressor

Another interesting thing. You are allowed to brandish as a warning:

II-a. A person who responds to a threat which would be considered by a reasonable person as likely to cause serious bodily injury or death to the person or to another by displaying a firearm or other means of self-defense with the intent to warn away the person making the threat shall not have committed a criminal act.

In case you don't know what Curtlage is, its the area immediately around your dwelling. So since all castle doctrine language in the law includes the curtlage, then you can use force BEFORE the person makes it in. for example, someone trying to break in your door. (but you'd better be able to see the person and identify them as someone you don't know - both ethically and legally.)

Finally, if you lawfully use deadly force in defense of yourself or others, you are immune from civil action:
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXII/627/627-1-a.htm

Don

 

[soloman02]

Only applies to use of force on another human. Use of force on an animal does not have those same protections (in statute at least).

 

[milktree]

Only applies to use of force on another human. Use of force on an animal does not have those same protections (in statute at least).

Wow, so "I thought the dog was a person" makes it *better*?

 

[robjax]

I hate this statement "which would be considered by a reasonable person "

Leaves too much open for a Monday morning QB interpretation...

 

[dcmdon]

The concept of a reasonable person has its origin in English Common Law, which is the basis for many of our laws.

Its a good litmus test because it would be impossible to enumerate all of the conditions where force would be justified. Instead you apply the reasonable person standard.
This usually works out well for self defense situations.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

NH is def turning into MA north.

 

[StevensMarksman]

#Live free or,... never mind.

StevensMarksman


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kevin_NH]

Incremental improvements since I moved to New Hampshire make me happy.

Either the edit box dropped your <sarcarsm> tags, or all of NES has completely forgotten the legislative history of RSA 627...</sarcasm>

Tell me again how 2010's HB-160 was so horrible for NH residents, or how 2011's SB-88 veto override turned New Hampshire into MA north.

Sure, we don't (yet) have constitutional carry, but not for lack of trying.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

Either the edit box dropped your <sarcarsm> tags, or all of NES has completely forgotten the legislative history of RSA 627...</sarcasm>

Tell me again how 2010's HB-160 was so horrible for NH residents, or how 2011's SB-88 veto override turned New Hampshire into MA north.

Sure, we don't (yet) have constitutional carry, but not for lack of trying.

Oh, I was def being sarcastic, not sure about the post after mine. I ignored it because after my last vacation I am trying to avoid jumping to conclusions and calling people faggots.

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

Wow, so "I thought the dog was a person" makes it *better*?

IT'S HEADED RIGHT FOR US!

- - - Updated - - -

NH is def turning into MA north.

You said above you were being sarcastic but...... I'll just remind everyone that the democrats tried to repeal that state's SYG law in 2013 and failed:
http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/...eal-debates-voter-id-kills-state-minimum-wage

 

[ChevyGuy91]

You said above you were being sarcastic but...... I'll just remind everyone that the democrats tried to repeal that state's SYG law in 2013 and failed:
http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/...eal-debates-voter-id-kills-state-minimum-wage

Tried.

 

[Drunder40]

Here is a header web page. Great stuff for anyone who intends to carry a firearm in NH
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/NHTOC/NHTOC-LXII-627.htm

Here it talks about justification:
Here: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXII/627/627-4.htm

1) NH has several statements describing a duty to retreat, but then says this, which is effectively a stand your ground statement:

A person is not justified in using deadly force on another to defend himself or herself or a third person from deadly force by the other if he or she knows that he or she and the third person can, with complete safety. . . . Retreat from the encounter, except that he or she is not required to retreat if he or she is within his or her dwelling, its curtilage, or anywhere he or she has a right to be, and was not the initial aggressor

Another interesting thing. You are allowed to brandish as a warning:

II-a. A person who responds to a threat which would be considered by a reasonable person as likely to cause serious bodily injury or death to the person or to another by displaying a firearm or other means of self-defense with the intent to warn away the person making the threat shall not have committed a criminal act.

In case you don't know what Curtlage is, its the area immediately around your dwelling. So since all castle doctrine language in the law includes the curtlage, then you can use force BEFORE the person makes it in. for example, someone trying to break in your door.(but you'd better be able to see the person and identify them as someone you don't know - both ethically and legally.)

Finally, if you lawfully use deadly force in defense of yourself or others, you are immune from civil action:
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXII/627/627-1-a.htm

Don

Just curious.. where can I find in NH law where it states one is legally required to positively identify a home invader.

I have searched and searched and no luck..

Thanks

 

[dcmdon]

I dont think you will find that.

It falls under the concept of reasonable and prudent actions. If you haven't identified the person you open yourself up to all kinds of problems. Even if you are not prosecuted, you will most likely face civil litigation.

And if you happen to kill someone whose family won't litigate against you, like your own child, then you have to live with that.

 

[Drunder40]

I dont think you will find that.

It falls under the concept of reasonable and prudent actions. If you haven't identified the person you open yourself up to all kinds of problems. Even if you are not prosecuted, you will most likely face civil litigation.

And if you happen to kill someone whose family won't litigate against you, like your own child, then you have to live with that.

Yes that is true and am aware of that.. it just sounded like there might be a law somewhere and I missed it.

Appreciate the reply..

 

[ChevyGuy91]

We'll see about that come november.....

I doubt it.

 

[Agincourt]

The Definition of Curtilage is Important

I am not a lawyer. That being said it is important to understand what is meant by 'curtilage'.

Very briefly it is that part of your property outside your actual house which by common law is still, legally, part of your home. So, for example, if you have a back yard with a patio that is surrounded by trees or stone walls such that it is not open to the public then it is probably curtilage. Of if you have a house with a barn or two, a second separate garage or outbuilding such as a storage shed, a garden with a bench or the like, it is probably curtilage. Again, I am not a lawyer, but if you take the 'reasonable man' standard it seems to me that the closer you are to your house and the more you use the area then the more likely it is to be curtilage. I would think that someone who had a barn ten feet from his house where he kept his garden supplies is clearly curtilage. But if someone has a large piece of property and the barn is sixty or seventy feet away it might be in doubt.

This was important in two cases in, where else, New York City and State back in the seventies or eighties. I am doing this from memory so if someone has more details please post them. At the time of these two cases the law was it was a misdemeanor to have an unregistered handgun in your home or place of business but a felony if it was outside your home.

In one case in NYC a man who was exceedingly drunk passed out in the doorway of his open apartment with an unregistered handgun in his belt; he was halfway out and halfway in. He was charged with felony possession but it was overturned on appeal since the court held a) as long as part of him was in his own apartment then 'all ' of him was in his apartment and b) not clearly stated but, IIRC, there was some indication that perhaps the apartment hallway for some reason (?he was at the end of the hall ?it was a cul de sac) was part of his curtilage and not a 'common area.'

In the other case, out on Long Island (I want to say Southampton) a businessman, also exceedingly drunk, was found outside of his home but on a gravel path next to it that, IIRC, had an outdoor shower one would use for the nearby swimming pool. Again, he was found not guilty of felony possession since the court held on appeal that this was clearly 'curtilage' and thus part of his home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtilage..."At common law, which derives from English law, curtilage has been defined as "the open space situated within a common enclosure belonging to a dwelling-house."[2] Black's Law Dictionary of 1891 defined it as:
"The enclosed space of ground and buildings immediately surrounding a dwelling-house. In its most comprehensive and proper legal signification, it includes all that space of ground and buildings thereon which is usually enclosed within the general fence immediately surrounding a principal messuage and outbuildings, and yard closely adjoining to a dwelling-house, but it may be large enough for cattle to be levant and couchant therein."
— Black's Law Dictionary[3]"..."In Florida v. Jardines (2013),[6][7] the Court held, in a 5-4 decision by Justice Antonin Scalia, that the curtilage may not be used by a canine cop to sniff for marijuana:[8]
We therefore regard the area "immediately surrounding and associated with the home"—what our cases call the curtilage—as "part of the home itself for Fourth Amendment purposes." ... That principle has ancient and durable roots. Just as the distinction between the home and the open fields is "as old as the common law," ... so too is the identity of home and what Blackstone called the "curtilage or homestall," for the "house protects and privileges all its branches and appurtenants." ... This area around the home is "intimately linked to the home, both physically and psychologically," and is where "privacy expectations are most heightened."
— Florida v. Jardines (2013), citations placed in the endnote[9]"

 

[rudiewhitebwoy]

#Live free or,... never mind.

StevensMarksman


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When we were kids on a road trip with the folks we'd play
Find-A-Car Bingo, part of the game is whenever you saw a
NH Plate you'd say "Eat Shit & Die"

The only thing tougher to find than a Rambler was an Imperial

 

[soloman02]

I am not a lawyer. That being said it is important to understand what is meant by 'curtilage'.

Very briefly it is that part of your property outside your actual house which by common law is still, legally, part of your home. So, for example, if you have a back yard with a patio that is surrounded by trees or stone walls such that it is not open to the public then it is probably curtilage. Of if you have a house with a barn or two, a second separate garage or outbuilding such as a storage shed, a garden with a bench or the like, it is probably curtilage. Again, I am not a lawyer, but if you take the 'reasonable man' standard it seems to me that the closer you are to your house and the more you use the area then the more likely it is to be curtilage. I would think that someone who had a barn ten feet from his house where he kept his garden supplies is clearly curtilage. But if someone has a large piece of property and the barn is sixty or seventy feet away it might be in doubt.

This was important in two cases in, where else, New York City and State back in the seventies or eighties. I am doing this from memory so if someone has more details please post them. At the time of these two cases the law was it was a misdemeanor to have an unregistered handgun in your home or place of business but a felony if it was outside your home.

In one case in NYC a man who was exceedingly drunk passed out in the doorway of his open apartment with an unregistered handgun in his belt; he was halfway out and halfway in. He was charged with felony possession but it was overturned on appeal since the court held a) as long as part of him was in his own apartment then 'all ' of him was in his apartment and b) not clearly stated but, IIRC, there was some indication that perhaps the apartment hallway for some reason (?he was at the end of the hall ?it was a cul de sac) was part of his curtilage and not a 'common area.'

In the other case, out on Long Island (I want to say Southampton) a businessman, also exceedingly drunk, was found outside of his home but on a gravel path next to it that, IIRC, had an outdoor shower one would use for the nearby swimming pool. Again, he was found not guilty of felony possession since the court held on appeal that this was clearly 'curtilage' and thus part of his home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtilage..."At common law, which derives from English law, curtilage has been defined as "the open space situated within a common enclosure belonging to a dwelling-house."[2] Black's Law Dictionary of 1891 defined it as:
"The enclosed space of ground and buildings immediately surrounding a dwelling-house. In its most comprehensive and proper legal signification, it includes all that space of ground and buildings thereon which is usually enclosed within the general fence immediately surrounding a principal messuage and outbuildings, and yard closely adjoining to a dwelling-house, but it may be large enough for cattle to be levant and couchant therein."
— Black's Law Dictionary[3]"..."In Florida v. Jardines (2013),[6][7] the Court held, in a 5-4 decision by Justice Antonin Scalia, that the curtilage may not be used by a canine cop to sniff for marijuana:[8]
We therefore regard the area "immediately surrounding and associated with the home"—what our cases call the curtilage—as "part of the home itself for Fourth Amendment purposes." ... That principle has ancient and durable roots. Just as the distinction between the home and the open fields is "as old as the common law," ... so too is the identity of home and what Blackstone called the "curtilage or homestall," for the "house protects and privileges all its branches and appurtenants." ... This area around the home is "intimately linked to the home, both physically and psychologically," and is where "privacy expectations are most heightened."
— Florida v. Jardines (2013), citations placed in the endnote[9]"

I could have sworn NH defined "curtilage" somewhere.

I'll go look.

 

[soloman02]

I could have sworn NH defined "curtilage" somewhere.

I'll go look.

Yep. it is defined. In the same chapter whereby it is used, Chapter 627.

627:9 Definitions. – As used in this chapter:
I. "Curtilage'' means those outbuildings which are proximately, directly and intimately connected with a dwelling, together with all the land or grounds surrounding the dwelling such as are necessary, convenient, and habitually used for domestic purposes.
II. "Deadly force'' means any assault or confinement which the actor commits with the purpose of causing or which he knows to create a substantial risk of causing death or serious bodily injury. Purposely firing a firearm capable of causing serious bodily injury or death in the direction of another person or at a vehicle in which another is believed to be constitutes deadly force.
III. "Dwelling'' means any building, structure, vehicle, boat or other place adapted for overnight accommodation of persons, or sections of any place similarly adapted. It is immaterial whether a person is actually present.
IV. "Non-deadly force'' means any assault or confinement which does not constitute deadly force. The act of producing or displaying a weapon shall constitute non-deadly force.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXII/627/627-9.htm

 

[dooshorama]

proximately, directly and intimately connected with a dwelling

and habitually used for domestic purposes

proximately and intimately connected? shouldn't it be OR?
domestic purposes? what're they trying to exclude here?

would you think this covers detached structures such as a parking garage or storage shed?

 

[Agincourt]

Please See the Wikipedia Link I Posted

proximately and intimately connected? shouldn't it be OR?
domestic purposes? what're they trying to exclude here?

would you think this covers detached structures such as a parking garage or storage shed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtilage

I am not a lawyer. That being said I think the 'reasonable man' interpretation that they are trying to set up is that whatever the area or structure is it is close enough to your home and is used often enough by you and is not open to the general public. As I said in my earlier post I think this includes your parking garage, storage shed, garden shed, barn or other outbuilding that is close to your house and used by you and your family with an expectation of privacy. Again, it is not so much what it is as how close it is to your house and how often you use it. So if you have a storage shed fifty yards from your house I don't think that would be considered 'curtilage'. If you have a storage shed five yards from your patio I think it would be considered 'curtilage'.