Inaccurate ATF records endanger gun owners

[copterdoctor]

Found this over on arfcom.
http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-...13-Inaccurate-ATF-records-endanger-gun-owners

 

[owningpeoplesince1984]

That is the government for you....

 

[n1zfg]

Actually, about 10 years ago, I heard that the registry was only about 75% accurate.

The fact that the ATF will testify that it is 100% accurate also isn't a surprise.
I would just like to see their claim actually get audited.

 

[cekim]

Actually, about 10 years ago, I heard that the registry was only about 75% accurate.

The fact that the ATF will testify that it is 100% accurate also isn't a surprise.
I would just like to see their claim actually get audited.

I'd like to see perjury charges brought if they testify that it is 100% accurate...

 

[GSG]

One more reason I have no interest in Class 3 stuff.

 

[cekim]

One more reason I have no interest in Class 3 stuff.

One more reason that a right not exercised is a right lost... [sad2]

 

[one-eyed Jack]

At my last audit, the inspector brought along copies of the forms for "all" the NFA stuff in my inventory. He was only short by two. I supplied copies of those to straighten things out. I keep copies of all the forms in my home, my office and in my car. On the plus side, I have not had a problem with ATF for 28 years. (Knocks on wood). It is really up to the individual to keep his records in order. Jack.

 

[Shooters-Hooksett]

My last compliance inspection had 427 NFA errors out of the 10,000 + NFA items sold over the years. As Jack stated "it is really up to the individual to keep his/her records in order"
My final inspection ended great - with a couple missing dates and a signature.

 

[pdm]

Shouldn't even be required. Government has no business knowing what you own.

 

[n1zfg]

My last compliance inspection had 427 NFA errors out of the 10,000 + NFA items sold over the years. As Jack stated "it is really up to the individual to keep his/her records in order"
My final inspection ended great - with a couple missing dates and a signature.

That is an accuracy of 95.73%
I don't know if it is enough to discredit some ATF hack claiming 100%, discredit the database itself, or just establish reasonable doubt. But then again I'm not Scrivener (or jcohen, cross-x, et al).

 

[securityboy]

One more reason I have no interest in Class 3 stuff.

I have no objection to someone not being interested in NFA stuff, but I am curious what in that article would have you thinking that way???

As is illustrated by that article and the comments of several posters before me, if you keep YOUR paperwork in order you shouldn't have a problem...

 

[GSG]

One more reason that a right not exercised is a right lost... [sad2]

Sad but true.

At my last audit, the inspector brought along copies of the forms for "all" the NFA stuff in my inventory. He was only short by two. I supplied copies of those to straighten things out. I keep copies of all the forms in my home, my office and in my car. On the plus side, I have not had a problem with ATF for 28 years. (Knocks on wood). It is really up to the individual to keep his records in order. Jack.

No offense intended to you, but it infuriates me that an individual should have to keep their records in order to show that they're not breaking the law because the ATF database has so many holes in it.

Shouldn't even be required. Government has no business knowing what you own.

Bingo, but especially not guns.

I have no objection to someone not being interested in NFA stuff, but I am curious what in that article would have you thinking that way???

As is illustrated by that article and the comments of several posters before me, if you keep YOUR paperwork in order you shouldn't have a problem...

It's not just that article, it's a history of abuse by ATF. Look at Michael Lara, the Arizona cop who was brought up on felony charges by ATF (which resulted in $250,000 or so in financial damage to him), and they didn't even interview him! They based their entire case off of statements he made regarding a drug case that had nothing to do with him, or with the charges that they brought against him. You can read about it here (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1974028...ENSING-AND-ENFORCEMENT-AUTHORITIES--House-Con), it starts at around page 20. They ruined his life because they couldn't even be bothered to make an investigatory phone call before charging him with a crime.

Or look at Albert Kwan, getting brought up on some seriously trumped up charges based on ownership of Class 3 goodies (http://www.jpfo.org/articles-assd/kwan-dismissed.htm). Read carefully into that one, they got very creative with his case.

Then there's Ruby Ridge, started over a shotgun barrel that was 1/4 inch too short, that snowballed because once again, they couldn't be bothered to make a phone call or an in person visit, finding it much more convenient to show up with a tac team to take down that awful criminal Randy Weaver. And do you have any idea how in depth their "investigation" of Randy Weaver was prior to them approaching him? They had his home under constant video surveillance, they knew his wife's menstural cycle, but the only way they could send him a summons was through the mail, with the wrong court date on it. (see this link http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...nt-documentary-on-Ruby-Ridge-incident/page2or this link http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...nS-and-other-Jews-should-have-told-me!!/page5).

I am a law abiding citizen, I do everything in my power to make sure that I'm not breaking any laws (which becomes quite the burden when you own guns in the US, yes even in a free state like where I live), and still I have to worry about whether or not I'll be brought up on some obscure charge for who knows what reason by the ATF. It's bad enough that my name is on so many 4473's, but as far as I'm concerned getting into NFA is the equivalent of painting a target on my back for a federal probe, sans Vaseline.

 

[securityboy]

... Look at Michael Lara, the Arizona cop who was brought up on felony charges by ATF ....

That has nothing to do with NFA though, the unfortunate reality is ANY gun owner who has ever sold/given away ANY gun could be in the same situation

Or look at Albert Kwan, getting brought up on some seriously trumped up charges based on ownership of Class 3 goodies (http://www.jpfo.org/articles-assd/kwan-dismissed.htm). Read carefully into that one, they got very creative with his case...

May be I didn't read it careful enough, I don't see how they got creative on that one, sounds pretty clear he had 1 unregistered SBR (in addition to his Registered MG), doesn't sound like ATF abuse sounds like Mr. Kwan had a good lawyer...

Then there's Ruby Ridge, started over a shotgun barrel that was 1/4 inch too short, that snowballed...

I am in NO way justifying Ruby Ridge or saying the results/actions are acceptable. HOWEVER 1/4 inch short is still a little too short (you know like a little pregnant )...

I am a law abiding citizen, I do everything in my power to make sure that I'm not breaking any laws (which becomes quite the burden when you own guns in the US, yes even in a free state like where I live), and still I have to worry about whether or not I'll be brought up on some obscure charge for who knows what reason by the ATF. It's bad enough that my name is on so many 4473's, but as far as I'm concerned getting into NFA is the equivalent of painting a target on my back for a federal probe, sans Vaseline.

So of the 3 cases you posted which stear you away from NFA, the two of them involving NFA clearly didn't "do everything in thier power to make sure they weren't breaking the laws" and in the one case in which there seems to be no violation of law it was a "regular" gun case so like you said you already have your name on so many 4473's. So why not throw your name on a Form 4, keep your records in order, and enjoy the fun that NFA toys have to offer... you need less worry, more fun

And if you still worry but think NFA would be fun, just go the corporation or trust route, and keep your good name out of it...

 

[GSG]

That has nothing to do with NFA though, the unfortunate reality is ANY gun owner who has ever sold/given away ANY gun could be in the same situation

Agreed. My point is that there are many cases where ATF has completely bungled cases and people have wound up out of hundreds of thousands of dollars, dead, wounded, or otherwise had their lives violently disrupted. It doesn't cost the agents a penny to bring you up on whatever charges they want, but it's on you to try and clear your name both in court and in the court of public opinion.

May be I didn't read it careful enough, I don't see how they got creative on that one, sounds pretty clear he had 1 unregistered SBR (in addition to his Registered MG), doesn't sound like ATF abuse sounds like Mr. Kwan had a good lawyer...

From that link:

[He] possessed two pistols and two shoulder stocks. One pistol, a Heckler & Koch VP70M, is capable of firing a three-round burst and therefore falls within the legal definition of a "machinegun.”

The other pistol, a Heckler & Koch VP70Z,1 is a semi-automatic, single-shot weapon, which alone does not constitute a firearm requiring registration...

Here's where it gets really illustrative of the lengths the government will go to destroy the life of a gun owner who will not bend to their will:

The two shoulder stocks are interchangeable and can be attached to either pistol. The stocks can also be used as a holster for either pistol. To enable the VP70M to fire three-round bursts, the shoulder stock must be attached; absent the stock, the VP70M will not operate in fully automatic (machinegun) mode. When combined with the VP70Z, however, the shoulder stock will not alter the firing mode, but the resulting weapon will constitute a single-shot rifle having a barrel of less than 16 inches in length, and will therefore qualify as a firearm requiring registration...

Even though the stock was not attached to the VP70Z, the government charged Kwan with having a short-barrel rifle and the jury found him guilty--after a proposed defense instruction to them was conveniently not allowed:

Felony charges for an interchangable shoulder stock.

I am in NO way justifying Ruby Ridge or saying the results/actions are acceptable. HOWEVER 1/4 inch short is still a little too short (you know like a little pregnant )...

I agree with you that a 1/4 inch too short is a 1/4 inch too short. I've never even considered cutting a shotgun barrel shorter than 18 inches. I don't like many of the ideas that Randy Weaver stood for, and honestly, I think he was missing a few screws. But the fact of the matter is that ATF spent a considerable amount of time watching him, getting to know him, before sending in their CI to entrap him into selling a "sawed off" to a federal agent. Even if he did sell the 1/4 inch too short felony to an undercover agent, it's functionally equivalent to a shotgun with an 18 inch barrel. The whole case was bungled, but it was clearly the result of an ATF witch hunt. That could just as easily be you, me or Michael Lara on the other end of that. All too often it is an honest person getting railroaded, whether it's an FFL or Joe Citizen.

Or take a look at Mitchell Johnson, and his legal case.

Johnson, meanwhile, has been arrested, convicted and sentenced to four years in federal prison on the rarely-used charge of possessing a gun while being a user of or addicted to a controlled substance.

Now again, I am not saying that this school shooter is such a great person. I have no sympathy for him, and I honestly believe that the world is a safer place with him in prison. But, once again, it concerns me to see the government bringing up "rarely used charges" when they really have to dig to stick it to someone and make an example out of him. It's not right, it's not Constitutional, and it scares me to think that I could be in the same boat if I sneeze when filling out a 4473 or any other number of tiny things that I could accidentally do wrong. NFA paperwork compounds that situation IMO.

So of the 3 cases you posted which stear you away from NFA, the two of them involving NFA clearly didn't "do everything in thier power to make sure they weren't breaking the laws" and in the one case in which there seems to be no violation of law it was a "regular" gun case so like you said you already have your name on so many 4473's. So why not throw your name on a Form 4, keep your records in order, and enjoy the fun that NFA toys have to offer... you need less worry, more fun

Two reasons. One, I don't believe in "keeping my records in order" for the government regarding firearms. I keep the absolute bare minimum of paperwork, still clinging to this idea that as a law abiding citizen I'm innocent until proven guilty. I especially have no interest in keeping paperwork that for all my efforts is worthless in the event ATF needs a poster boy to push another AWB or similar foolishness.

Secondly, there is a stigma associated with "evil" guns that are silenced, have short barrels or fire on full auto, and for what its worth, every case I've ever heard of where someone uses a Class 3 gun for self defense they wind up before a grand jury (Gary Fadden, Harry Beckwith, etc.). I don't own guns that I wouldn't defend myself with, they're tools to preserve my life if confronted with violent death by some criminal in this dangerous world we live in. If at all possible, I'd like to avoid using my guns in self defense, but if I have to, I'd also like to avoid needless prosecution/hassle.

But if the day comes where I can legally buy a machine gun the way you could in the 1920's, I might invest in one.

 

[securityboy]

Felony charges for an interchangable shoulder stock.

No, felony changes for constructive possession of an unregistered SBR. Just because it wasn't assembled at the time doesn't change what it is, 2 stocks with 2 weapons that both accept said stocks, one is registered one is not...one is legal the other is not...

Secondly, there is a stigma associated with "evil" guns that are silenced, have short barrels or fire on full auto, and for what its worth, every case I've ever heard of where someone uses a Class 3 gun for self defense they wind up before a grand jury (Gary Fadden, Harry Beckwith, etc.). I don't own guns that I wouldn't defend myself with, they're tools to preserve my life if confronted with violent death by some criminal in this dangerous world we live in. If at all possible, I'd like to avoid using my guns in self defense, but if I have to, I'd also like to avoid needless prosecution/hassle.

My NFA are "toys" plain and simple, sure if some goof happens to "get silly" and that is my quickest item I can use to defend myself, it will work fine, but I don't plan on using them as such...thier main job is to put holes in old cars, refigerators, etc...

Life's too short to worry bout too much, but he with the most toys wins

 

[GSG]

No, felony changes for constructive possession of an unregistered SBR. Just because it wasn't assembled at the time doesn't change what it is, 2 stocks with 2 weapons that both accept said stocks, one is registered one is not...one is legal the other is not...

That's my point though. It took quite a lot of "contruction" for them to come up with that one. If it wasn't for NES I wouldn't have known it was illegal to posess a shoulder stock in my attic and a pistol in my basement.

From (http://www.jpfo.org/pdf02/kwan-order-dismiss.pdf)

On March 16, 2004, agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (“ATF”)
seized 19 weapons from defendant’s home, operating under the impression that defendant
was no longer permitted to possess the seized weapons because his dealer license had
expired

then

3At oral argument, the Government conceded that defendant was legally entitled to possess
the VP70M. In response to the Court’s questions, the parties stipulated that defendant was
required to have a license to possess the VP70M, that he (at one point) had the requisite
license, that he was required to register the machinegun, and that he did so by paying the
special (occupational) tax. The Court reaches the same conclusion as the parties, namely that
defendant was legally entitled to possess the VP70M, based on both the parties’ stipulation
and the Court’s review of the statutes and regulations at issue. The VP70M at issue falls
within the “grandfather” exception to the ban on machineguns expressed in 18 U.S.C.
§ 922(o). As a result, defendant was never required to have a dealer license to possess the weapon. See 27 C.F.R. § 479.105(b). He was, however, obligated to register the weapon
upon transfer to him, 26 U.S.C. § 5861(d), but he was exempt from the $200 transfer tax as a
result of his status as a special (occupational) taxpayer, 26 U.S.C. § 5852(d). See also 26
U.S.C. § 5811; 26 U.S.C. § 5801 (special (occupational) tax for a dealer in firearms is $500
per year). With regard to the VP70M, defendant submitted the requisite ATF Form 3 titled
“Application for Tax-Exempt Transfer of Firearm and Registration to Special Occupational
Taxpayer (National Firearms Act),” which effectively registered the machinegun. Tr. Exh.
A11. Thus, when defendant’s dealer license expired, he was still legally entitled to possess
the VP70M machinegun.

The bold emphasis I added on my own to highlight the fact that the ATF got a search warrant over something that they thought was illegal, which wasn't illegal. If he hadn't had all those federal licenses, chances are he wouldn't have come to the attention of ATF. My point is that he got put through the wringer over someone's inability to read, and because of many examples of situations like that, I don't want to get in bed with the ATF to have some "fun toys."