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faraday bag for cell phone; can it stop contact tracing
- Thread starter nordic alien
- Start date
Most proposals for smartphone contact tracing use bluetooth transmissions and GPS reception. Both would be blocked by an actual Faraday shield.
For 99.9999% of the population in a free country, just turning off the phone (not standby, OFF) is more than sufficient (The other 0.0001% are too paranoid/incapacitated/incarcerated to touch a smartphone). While turned off, the Bluetooth and GPS chips are provably inactive on factory hardware. Now, if you're the target of Mossad and suspect your phone has been tampered with, all bets are off.
Leaving the phone turned on in the bag is counterproductive, and also drains your battery very quickly as the phone will just keep trying (at full transmit power) to talk to cell towers. Only reason to do so would be if you want to fool your adversaries into thinking you are compliant with their "contact tracing" and just happen to spend all your time alone in poor-signal areas.
For 99.9999% of the population in a free country, just turning off the phone (not standby, OFF) is more than sufficient (The other 0.0001% are too paranoid/incapacitated/incarcerated to touch a smartphone). While turned off, the Bluetooth and GPS chips are provably inactive on factory hardware. Now, if you're the target of Mossad and suspect your phone has been tampered with, all bets are off.
Leaving the phone turned on in the bag is counterproductive, and also drains your battery very quickly as the phone will just keep trying (at full transmit power) to talk to cell towers. Only reason to do so would be if you want to fool your adversaries into thinking you are compliant with their "contact tracing" and just happen to spend all your time alone in poor-signal areas.
Jason m
NES Member
I have the "poor mans version" of a faraday bag, its a Cumby coffee bag. You know the one you buy there pre-ground coffee in. Works great as long as its folded up tight.
But no calls or text can get threw and anytime I pull it out, I check the phone fast and its always "searching for a signal" till it finds it.
Back in the bag with the top folded over tight and its lights out for a signal, your mileage may vary.
But no calls or text can get threw and anytime I pull it out, I check the phone fast and its always "searching for a signal" till it finds it.
Back in the bag with the top folded over tight and its lights out for a signal, your mileage may vary.
If someone has the motivation and technology to track your phone against your wishes, then there probably isn’t much you can do to stop them from knowing where you are regardless. But to answer your question, yes.
JRT
NES Member
You don’t even have to turn off your phone. Just go to the health app and turn off COVID tracking. The other tracking you see for movement is masked, they are looking at cellular movement they don’t specifically know it’s you.
JRT
NES Member
It’s not an app, it’s coming in 13.5 iOS and whatever Android next version is. It will push to you in the next couple days
Sure a real faraday cage would work. But it will drain your battery while it searches for signal.
With the stuff that iOS and Android are baking in to the OS... we'll have to wait to see if there is anything baked in that would allow tracing to be done with the phone "off", since "off" may or may not mean everything is powered down.
With the stuff that iOS and Android are baking in to the OS... we'll have to wait to see if there is anything baked in that would allow tracing to be done with the phone "off", since "off" may or may not mean everything is powered down.
It's two parts -- system calls (APIs) in the next OS release for both platforms, and then a separate voluntarily (in most countries) downloaded app to use the new APIs to actually do tracing. No App, and Bluetooth disabled == no contact tracing.
The "second phase" will turn on the beacons automatically (after user opts in), even if you don't download the app.
Good point -- a foil coffee bag could be more effective than the cheap "signal blocker pouch" products sold on eBay/Amazon/etc.
If unsure whether a particular container is an effective signal blocker, there's an easy test.
- Start a phone call or YouTube video playing with the speaker on full volume.
- Put the phone in the container, if the audio stops (could take a minute for a stream that may be buffered), the signal (WiFi or mobile data) was interrupted.
- Repeat the same test, playing a local MP3 through a bluetooth headset (outside the bag, on your ears!) instead of the speaker.
I keep seeing this (off doesn't really mean off) claim made, never see any proof that this "feature" is in the stock firmware and unmodified (no physical changes inside the case) phone. To be effective for contact tracing, your phone would need to not only be passively listening for GPS and BTLE beacons, but also transmit a beacon of it's own (otherwise two or more people, carrying phones which are "playing dead", could meet and it wouldn't be logged).
Nothing stopping you from turning the phone to "off" and also putting it in a container (see above).
If you're a little more paranoid, you can buy one of the handful of phones that still offer a removable battery.
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greencobra
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i got to ask...what makes you think people are listening in/tracing you guys. unless the wife wants to know where you are at a given moment when you don't come home on time, i can't understand why anyone would care about this. are there important men/women among us here on nes that i'm not aware of? not trying to offend anyone.
eta: maxwell smart comes to mind right now trying to tear his shoe phone out of the bag of silence.
eta: maxwell smart comes to mind right now trying to tear his shoe phone out of the bag of silence.
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Note: there's been a lot of effort to make the cell phone contact tracing app reasonably anonymous, and it is one of the ways that we can actually some significant benefit from the whole lockdown fiasco. By staying apart for two months, the number of infections drops down to something small enough where it makes sense to try informing people when they might have been exposed to infection.
Note also, you tinfoilers, that the phone companies have already been packaging and selling your location to anyone with the cash for the last decade, so an honest attempt at anonymous contact tracing with no location data is the not the thing you should be worrying about.
Explicit user consent required • Doesn’t collect personally identifiable information or user location data • List of people you’ve been in contact with never leaves your phone • People who test positive are not identified to other users, Google or Apple
Note also, you tinfoilers, that the phone companies have already been packaging and selling your location to anyone with the cash for the last decade, so an honest attempt at anonymous contact tracing with no location data is the not the thing you should be worrying about.
Explicit user consent required • Doesn’t collect personally identifiable information or user location data • List of people you’ve been in contact with never leaves your phone • People who test positive are not identified to other users, Google or Apple
Asaltweapon
NES Member
I met a guy and almost did a deal with him who was into cell phone tracking who was making a ton of money selling the data about 10 or so years ago. It was being purchased by traffic data displays. The company was in Cambridge and I was standing in the space.
I’m rather sure I’ve tossed his card and we didn’t move forward on the project of CAD-CAM stick built housing. His gig was basically scanning a set of plans and download it into a computer controlled 12” DeWalt compound miter saw.
It was an interesting concept.
I’m rather sure I’ve tossed his card and we didn’t move forward on the project of CAD-CAM stick built housing. His gig was basically scanning a set of plans and download it into a computer controlled 12” DeWalt compound miter saw.
It was an interesting concept.
The cell tower knows where u are when the phone is on...PERIOD!
If you are concerned about the bluetooth contact tracing you have heard about from apple/google is nothing to worry about IMO. The spec is pubic: Privacy-Preserving Contact Tracing - Apple and Google if it were insecure security researchers would be saying so. Apple's business strategy is to make money selling hardware not selling your data. Google I trust less because they make money selling you.
If you are concerned about the bluetooth contact tracing you have heard about from apple/google is nothing to worry about IMO. The spec is pubic: Privacy-Preserving Contact Tracing - Apple and Google if it were insecure security researchers would be saying so. Apple's business strategy is to make money selling hardware not selling your data. Google I trust less because they make money selling you.
aeromarine
NES Member
The real problem will come when a contact tracer notifies you that you've had close contact with a documented COVID carrier and there is a high probability that you may be infected. At that point things will not be voluntary and they will not politely ask you to stay at home. Rather, you will be officially quarantined and legally compelled to self isolate. Yes, that's what you should do and, in any event, it's the right and responsible thing to do. But it won't be voluntary, you won't have any choice and there will be significant consequences if you don't comply. The first things they'll want to know is your cell phone number, the number of your E-Z Pass tag and your vehicle license plate registration number, and that is just the start of how you will be tracked.
This COVID event is just a warm up. For better or worse the government is looking ahead to the next pandemic, one that has a much higher mortality rate than the approximate 1 to 5 percent we're seeing with this bug. This is a dry run preparing for the emergence of a disease like Ebola or SARS but one with a long period of incubation and high rate of contagion coupled with a 40 or 50 percent mortality. They want to have all the apparatus in place. But if they do, what will prevent it from being used for nefarious purposes?
This should also be a warning to us that prepping for just a two-to-four week shelter in place event would be woefully inadequate in the event of the above scenario. But how much prepping is really feasible and practical for most of us?
This COVID event is just a warm up. For better or worse the government is looking ahead to the next pandemic, one that has a much higher mortality rate than the approximate 1 to 5 percent we're seeing with this bug. This is a dry run preparing for the emergence of a disease like Ebola or SARS but one with a long period of incubation and high rate of contagion coupled with a 40 or 50 percent mortality. They want to have all the apparatus in place. But if they do, what will prevent it from being used for nefarious purposes?
This should also be a warning to us that prepping for just a two-to-four week shelter in place event would be woefully inadequate in the event of the above scenario. But how much prepping is really feasible and practical for most of us?
PaulR
NES Member
Almost.
10 year old Casio Milspec 3G flip-phone here.
Watch out baby, I got a 1MP camera!
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
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Not paranoid here, just a cheap bastard that wants nothing to do with the latest and greatest whiz bang doo-dad. Picked up a few spare batteries while I could still find them, gonna stick with it until I'm forced to get something else. The funny part is folks at work had never heard of it and thought it was something new and were crazy interested in it(especially with the live tiles that can be re-sized and it's leather back), a few even asked where they could get one.
Microsoft Lumia 950 specs
Microsoft Lumia 950 specifications - Display: 5.2 inches AMOLED; Camera: 20 MP (OIS, Autofocus, BSI sensor); Processor: Qualcomm Snapdragon 808 MSM8992; RAM: 3GB LPDDR3; Battery: 3000 mAh
www.phonearena.com
FrugalFannie
NES Member
that'll work too
Lank
NES Member
NOW THIS IS FACISM
HarryPottar
NES Member
It’s not all about being paranoid or tin foil wearing. Our overzealous operations guy, whom thankfully is no longer with our company, was proud of the fact he could use the find my phone to locate the company phones. They are company provided iPhones and we are supposed to have find my phone turned on so that they can be remote wiped and locked if lost.
The guy in question wasn’t smart as he would broadcast he could check where you are at, especially if you called in sick and was out and about.
I’m supposed to be on call, but I told the company I refuse to carry my phone after hours because I don’t expect to be tracked after hours. I eventually had them agree I could turn that option off, sometimes it’s just the principle that matters.
Btw, I had a Doctor tell me I was paranoid once,... well he didn’t actually say it but I knew he was thinking it.
harry
The guy in question wasn’t smart as he would broadcast he could check where you are at, especially if you called in sick and was out and about.
I’m supposed to be on call, but I told the company I refuse to carry my phone after hours because I don’t expect to be tracked after hours. I eventually had them agree I could turn that option off, sometimes it’s just the principle that matters.
Btw, I had a Doctor tell me I was paranoid once,... well he didn’t actually say it but I knew he was thinking it.
harry
I used to work as an RF tech and then RF engineer for a cellular company, but that was a lifetime ago. I can say with certainty that a cell phone needs to constantly ping a tower to ID itself and let the network know where it is. It does that so the network knows where to direct calls to at a physical cell phone tower and sector on the antenna array.
OP: One thing you should be aware of is that if you leave you phone on and put it in that bag your battery will drain quickly. The reason being is that the the cell phone will constantly be transmitting to contact the network and let it know its location. If it is a true faraday bag it will not be able to connect. Normally it would only transmit periodically and sleep to conserve battery in between pings.
You can see the same sort of thing if you leave you phone on in an airplane. The phone will constantly try and connect to a network and drain the battery at 32K feet going 400 MPH.
OP: One thing you should be aware of is that if you leave you phone on and put it in that bag your battery will drain quickly. The reason being is that the the cell phone will constantly be transmitting to contact the network and let it know its location. If it is a true faraday bag it will not be able to connect. Normally it would only transmit periodically and sleep to conserve battery in between pings.
You can see the same sort of thing if you leave you phone on in an airplane. The phone will constantly try and connect to a network and drain the battery at 32K feet going 400 MPH.
bigben111435
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Motorola rzr from 2006 hereAlmost.
10 year old Casio Milspec 3G flip-phone here.
Watch out baby, I got a 1MP camera!
EDIT: with removable battery.
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The thing about "tower pings" is, that functionality is provably disabled in airplane mode, and has nothing to do with the way Apple+Google are implementing their contact tracing functionality. See my reply up on page 1 of this thread.
I'm also reasonably sure that the cellular baseband subprocessor in smartphones isn't able to see/log the "ping" transmissions from other phones on the network, the receiving antenna only picks up towers (and stingrays), not other phones.
It's all supposition, which is just a few letters off for where Apple will expect you to put the next generation of iPhone.
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