Extreme Close Quarter Shooting Seminar

[ChevyGuy91]

Saw this on M4C, thought I would bring it over here. Reminds me a little of the Spetznaz Ninja's.



I dig the tactical fanny bag.

 

[M1911]

I see that they bought into the position SUL hype. But what's up with:

1) muzzle pointing directly at the ceiling during mag changes,
2) the one-handed, home-boy shooting with the gun rotated 90 degrees to the left?

I also saw at least one lovely sweep of a teammate with the muzzle.

 

[P-14]

Gansta mall ninjas?

 

[ChevyGuy91]

You for got 3) the hokie pokie.

 

[DaveB]

is that synchronized shooting I saw starting at around 1:14

 

[Cooter Brown]

I also saw at least one lovely sweep of a teammate with the muzzle.

1:11

Guess that's what you get for being left of center in this guy's class

 

[Jose]

I learn my extreme CQB from RTT-CQB Man......slaying bodies...all the time.....goodtogo?

 

[oilspill]

Is that a tactical chest poke?

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I learn my extreme CQB from RTT-CQB Man......slaying bodies...all the time.....goodtogo?

oh man, that was excellent.

 

[TheWookie]

1) muzzle pointing directly at the ceiling during mag changes,

Just curious, what do you recommend?

I thought it was interesting, some good training.

 

[M1911]

Just curious, what do you recommend?

There is no need to elevate the muzzle that high during mag changes, and none of the places I've trained at (LFI, SigArms Academy, Cumberland Tactics) taught it that way. It wastes time.

Keep the gun pointed towards the target while the magazine drops out, but bring the gun in towards your body a bit. As you bring up the spare magazine, rotate your wrist about 30 degrees or so, so that the mag well points towards your weak side.

I thought it was interesting, some good training.

Good training? Shooting one handed with the gun horizontal, gansta style, not using the sights? Why?

Furthermore, pointing a gun at your training partner is NOT good training. Watch the video carefully around the 1:11 mark. See how the shooter on the right sweeps his partner with the muzzle.

 

[economist]

I learn my extreme CQB from RTT-CQB Man......slaying bodies...all the time.....goodtogo?

Wow, too good.

 

[TheWookie]

I was just curious about the mag change, people teach it differently that's all I'll say. If your way works, great.

And I think the cant, or gangsta as you call it is a result of working with a shield. It is almost impossible in full gear to shield shoot with a pistol that isn't canted. I have yet to see anyone use a completely vertically held weapon while shield shooting unless if they are using a MUST or Bat type of shield or similar. Also, a slight cant is natural, some people tend to over do it, but again it's one of those things that people teach differently.

I'm not saying what I saw was perfect, and yes, I saw a little sloppiness with the muzzles, but in that type of training it is going to happen. Nobody wants or advocates for it, but it happens, sometimes. They should have done a better job editing that.

Any way, it was interesting.

 

[M1911]

I learn my extreme CQB from RTT-CQB Man......slaying bodies...all the time.....goodtogo?

 

[M1911]

I was just curious about the mag change, people teach it differently that's all I'll say. If your way works, great.

There's no need to bring the gun up that high and it slows down your magazine changes.

And I think the cant, or gangsta as you call it is a result of working with a shield. It is almost impossible in full gear to shield shoot with a pistol that isn't canted. I have yet to see anyone use a completely vertically held weapon while shield shooting unless if they are using a MUST or Bat type of shield or similar.

I haven't ever used a shield (and likely never will, not being a cop), but I've heard the same thing. However, they weren't using a shield.

Also, a slight cant is natural, some people tend to over do it, but again it's one of those things that people teach differently.

I don't have a problem with a slight cant. I use a slight cant when shooting one handed on my weak side -- that brings the sights into alignment with my dominant eye and keeps my wrist locked.

But they're not using a slight cant, nor are they using the sights at all. I understand point shooting at close distances, but IMHO, that's better done with the gun in basically the same position as when shooting with the sights, other than being slightly lower in your line of sight. Furthermore, it takes longer to get into that position. Watch how long it takes them to rotate the gun around to that position -- if they'd kept the gun closer to normal, they could have shot 1/4 second sooner.

I'm not saying what I saw was perfect, and yes, I saw a little sloppiness with the muzzles, but in that type of training it is going to happen. Nobody wants or advocates for it, but it happens, sometimes. They should have done a better job editing that.

I disagree. They should have done a better job of muzzle discipline. Watch what he does with the gun at 1:11. He waves the muzzle all over the place. He starts with the gun pointed at the target, then brings the muzzle up so it is pointing directly at the ceiling, then he rotates the gun so that it is pointing 90 degrees to the left -- directly at his partner, and then he rotates the gun around to his gansta position. Not only is it unsafe, it is a gross waste of time.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

And I think the cant, or gangsta as you call it is a result of working with a shield. It is almost impossible in full gear to shield shoot with a pistol that isn't canted. I have yet to see anyone use a completely vertically held weapon while shield shooting unless if they are using a MUST or Bat type of shield or similar. Also, a slight cant is natural, some people tend to over do it, but again it's one of those things that people teach differently.

I wouldn't give these guys the benefit of the assumption that they are training to shoot over a shield. I can order a tshirt that says swat on it too. That ninja clown was standing straight up and busting caps with that gat straight out and gangsta sideways.

 

[bfm]

I have been taught to use the 90 degree (gangsta) tilt in exactly one circumstance. That is a touching distance target and an appendix carried concealed weapon. Supposed reason being it is quicker to just get the muzzel up than to rotate and get the muzzel up.

 

[M1911]

I have been taught to use the 90 degree (gangsta) tilt in exactly one circumstance. That is a touching distance target and an appendix carried concealed weapon. Supposed reason being it is quicker to just get the muzzel up than to rotate and get the muzzel up.

I'd have to see that run on a timer to believe gansta tilt is faster.

 

[TheRoland]

Original Video

Ooooh, they used a check drill. Must be switched-on high-drag operators from the sandbox (or whatever it is these days).

mall ninjas

I don't know anything about the instructor in question, so I'm not necessarily speaking of him. But in general, the sheer number of total goofs that are teaching tactical "systems" is amazing. Almost more amazing is that some of these losers are incredibly successful at it, teaching their useless and made-up crap to police, SWAT cops, and even military units (who damn well should know better). Their stuff would never survive a serious or objective test, but if it looks tactical enough, if they've been peddling it for long enough, and they use the right buzzwords, otherwise smart people fall for it.

All the big name instructors these days seem to not want to criticize their less reputable competitors or even go after people who don't know what they're doing. I don't know if they're just really nice people, or want to seem like they're above the fray, but when Jeff Cooper was alive, he wasn't afraid to use the word "charlatan".

EDIT: OK, I can't find any evidence Cooper ever actually called anyone a charlatan. But you get the point.

 

[bfm]

I'd have to see that run on a timer to believe gansta tilt is faster.

It was only for when you were in so close that you had to lean into the opponent to clear the pistol, then just tilt your wrist and fire. Also only taught to those where were actually carrying in the 1-2 o'clock position. Was never used if you had room to extend your arm.

 

[M1911]

It was only for when you were in so close that you had to lean into the opponent to clear the pistol, then just tilt your wrist and fire. Also only taught to those where were actually carrying in the 1-2 o'clock position. Was never used if you had room to extend your arm.

I understand that. I still don't see it, though. In that situation, I can see it being faster to have the gun tilted somewhat -- say 30 to 45 degrees. But 90 degrees rotated like these guys were shooting? That actually requires more movement of the wrist.

 

[TheWookie]

There's no need to bring the gun up that high and it slows down your magazine changes.


I haven't ever used a shield (and likely never will, not being a cop), but I've heard the same thing. However, they weren't using a shield.


I don't have a problem with a slight cant. I use a slight cant when shooting one handed on my weak side -- that brings the sights into alignment with my dominant eye and keeps my wrist locked.

But they're not using a slight cant, nor are they using the sights at all. I understand point shooting at close distances, but IMHO, that's better done with the gun in basically the same position as when shooting with the sights, other than being slightly lower in your line of sight. Furthermore, it takes longer to get into that position. Watch how long it takes them to rotate the gun around to that position -- if they'd kept the gun closer to normal, they could have shot 1/4 second sooner.


I disagree. They should have done a better job of muzzle discipline. Watch what he does with the gun at 1:11. He waves the muzzle all over the place. He starts with the gun pointed at the target, then brings the muzzle up so it is pointing directly at the ceiling, then he rotates the gun so that it is pointing 90 degrees to the left -- directly at his partner, and then he rotates the gun around to his gansta position. Not only is it unsafe, it is a gross waste of time.

Dude, relax. Or take your pointers to a place where you can teach. I certainly don't need your dissertation. How much teaching time do you have at CQB? You mentioned a lot of civilian schools -- were you teaching there or did you attend?

 

[economist]

It was only for when you were in so close that you had to lean into the opponent to clear the pistol, then just tilt your wrist and fire. Also only taught to those where were actually carrying in the 1-2 o'clock position. Was never used if you had room to extend your arm.

From a close quarters course at Sig: Close in, standard holster position (not appendix carry, etc), as soon as the gun is clear, rotate wrist to the right (to get point of aim up) and fire. One variation was to push off with the weak hand while drawing, with the strong side foot dropped back a bit, then bring the weak hand to the chest (so you don't shoot it) and fire at center mass from just out of the holster. Maybe this is all off topic, but it is a situation where shooting with the gun turned sideways makes some sense.

 

[M1911]

Dude, relax. Or take your pointers to a place where you can teach. I certainly don't need your dissertation.

You said that "I thought it was interesting, some good training." I feel otherwise, and explained my reasoning, in detail. I'm perfectly relaxed, so if you wish to explain where my reasoning is faulty, I'm all ears, er, eyes. I've been wrong before, so show me where I'm wrong here. I'm always eager to learn, even from those I disagree with.

How much teaching time do you have at CQB? You mentioned a lot of civilian schools -- were you teaching there or did you attend?

I was a student. Some of the classes I've taken include LFI-1 and 2, Sigarms Concealed Carry and Advanced Concealed Carry, Cumberland Tactics Handgun 101. While I am an NRA Certified Instructor, as you probably know that doesn't involve any CQB. None of those schools taught magazine changes with the muzzle pointing straight up.

I am low-speed, high drag. But I don't think you need to be a CQB instructor to look at the large arcs of muzzle movement away from the target, large amounts of wrist rotation, and decide whether you think that is good or bad.

 

[drgrant]

You for got 3) the hokie pokie.

For some reason I thought that video would have a Disco Inferno soundtrack....

-Mike

 

[M1911]

For some reason I thought that video would have a Disco Inferno soundtrack....

Now you're showing your age .

Thank God I burned all the negatives from the '70s

 

[drgrant]

Now you're showing your age .

Thank God I burned all the negatives from the '70s

I was actually born a few years after that song came out, but I've heard it in so many of those "disco gold" commercials from the 80s that it was hard to shake.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

I was actually born a few years after that song came out, but I've heard it in so many of those "disco gold" commercials from the 80s that it was hard to shake.

No need to feel left out. You can buy vintage '70s disco shirts on the web...

 

[bfm]

I understand that. I still don't see it, though. In that situation, I can see it being faster to have the gun tilted somewhat -- say 30 to 45 degrees. But 90 degrees rotated like these guys were shooting? That actually requires more movement of the wrist.

Yeah, it wasn't exactly 90, it was basically just you are in too close to use the sights anyways, so bring the muzzel up fast and get your shots into the torso. Mostly I have taken the CCW classes at the SIG academy, but as mentioned that was strong side carry and pivot wrist up as soon as drawn then punch out towards target. The other technique was from a more martial arts program that included weapon retention and various close in senarios while deploying knife, gun, etc. Intructors had a mix of background that included AMOK and Systema as well as a few others.

 

[TheWookie]

You said that "I thought it was interesting, some good training." I feel otherwise, and explained my reasoning, in detail. I'm perfectly relaxed, so if you wish to explain where my reasoning is faulty, I'm all ears, er, eyes. I've been wrong before, so show me where I'm wrong here. I'm always eager to learn, even from those I disagree with.


I was a student. Some of the classes I've taken include LFI-1 and 2, Sigarms Concealed Carry and Advanced Concealed Carry, Cumberland Tactics Handgun 101. While I am an NRA Certified Instructor, as you probably know that doesn't involve any CQB. None of those schools taught magazine changes with the muzzle pointing straight up.

I am low-speed, high drag. But I don't think you need to be a CQB instructor to look at the large arcs of muzzle movement away from the target, large amounts of wrist rotation, and decide whether you think that is good or bad.

That's fine, let's just say I've seen worse and I've been taught better, but I'm not going to rip apart every person who posts a YouTube video,, unless I plan on going there for some continuing edjumacation. I don't think everything they did on that video was jacked up, or perfect, I originally said some good training. But we can agree to disagree on how much.

I don't think your reasoning is wrong, I was just wondering why -- as you must know, there is more than one way to skin a cat. One instructor teaches things one way and can show plenty of valid examples why, another instructor might have another way with plenty of examples why it's right.

Myself, I've spent plenty of time reviewing film on students doing CQB for safety violations and the like. Video is a great tool because it does not lie and it doesn't miss anything. When that guy muzzled his neighbor -- it was an obvious teaching moment, the video only shows the safety violation -- it does not show the teaching moment the RSO or HMFIC should have exploited. Any way I watched that video one time and I commented, I saw a few things, not my particular style of music, but nothing major other than the flagging while the two of them were doing synchronized pistol maneuvers at 1:11. But, those guys looked queer doing that, so if somebody gets shot it's just part of natural selection. I keed.

I invite you to my YouTube channel where you can pick apart whatever you feel, but keep in mind -- you might catch something being done wrong, but you may not see the correction that was made after. http://www.youtube.com/user/TheWookieStrikes?feature=mhum