Enlightening day at the range

[TheRoland]

That and it cost more than the gun itself to do something like that.
Someday.

Put it on a more expensive gun. Problem solved!

It's way down the list. I used to think it was the wave of the future, just like it is with rifles, but since getting better with my pistol, I'm not 100% sure the additional complexity is worth it on a carry gun. EDIT: Probably worthy of another thread, sorry for derail.

 

[Supermoto]

Fundamentals are basic and apply across the board, not specific to certain guns.

This is 100% correct, While you might have an easier time shooting one gun over the next, there should not be a substantial different, especially when target shooting. Put the sights on the target, keep them there until the gun goes bang. It is the same for all guns.

 

[jbos6]

This is 100% correct, While you might have an easier time shooting one gun over the next, there should not be a substantial different, especially when target shooting. Put the sights on the target, keep them there until the gun goes bang. It is the same for all guns.

While I certainly agree that putting the sights on the target until the gun goes bang is the *intent*, what I and others are struggling with is why that seems to happen correctly and naturally when shooting some pistols and not others. I have the same problems when shooting two different G23's, so clearly it's not an issue with ONE pistol in particular, it's with one TYPE of pistol in particular. I'm not changing my approach to shooting when I pick up different pistols, so clearly there is some feature or difference in triggers or grips or something that causes my approach to work sometimes and not work other times.

 

[Hanwei]

While I certainly agree that putting the sights on the target until the gun goes bang is the *intent*, what I and others are struggling with is why that seems to happen correctly and naturally when shooting some pistols and not others. I have the same problems when shooting two different G23's, so clearly it's not an issue with ONE pistol in particular, it's with one TYPE of pistol in particular. I'm not changing my approach to shooting when I pick up different pistols, so clearly there is some feature or difference in triggers or grips or something that causes my approach to work sometimes and not work other times.

And this is what I meant before when I said that each trigger design requires a different "approach"... on top of the fundamentals. If you're not changing your approach to match the different designs... you will not get the same result with each design.

But clearly, this is where talking on a forum becomes less useful... and you getting together with a pistol coach (or just a friend/acquaintance who is knowledgeable enough to coach) to take a look at how you can improve your "approach" becomes more useful.

 

[Supermoto]

While I certainly agree that putting the sights on the target until the gun goes bang is the *intent*, what I and others are struggling with is why that seems to happen correctly and naturally when shooting some pistols and not others. I have the same problems when shooting two different G23's, so clearly it's not an issue with ONE pistol in particular, it's with one TYPE of pistol in particular. I'm not changing my approach to shooting when I pick up different pistols, so clearly there is some feature or difference in triggers or grips or something that causes my approach to work sometimes and not work other times.

Technique goes down the crapper when then fundamentals are stressed. Some gun hide technique flaws, others expose them. The problem is not the gun, its the shooter. You should get the Glock and work at it until you resolve the issue. It will make you a better shooter

 

[Supermoto]

And this is what I meant before when I said that each trigger design requires a different "approach"... on top of the fundamentals. If you're not changing your approach to match the different designs... you will not get the same result with each design.
.

I disagree, some designs allow you to get away with poor technique. The approach is always the same

 

[C-pher]

And to be more clear I advocate moving sights to match the gun. I just don't think in most cases they should be moved to suit the user.

I knew what you meant...I was just busting your jewels.

 

[Hanwei]

I disagree, some designs allow you to get away with poor technique. The approach is always the same

We're saying the same thing... where you use "approach" in your statement above... I'd use "fundamentals".

When I say "approach"... I simply mean what you have to do before getting to the part where the fundamentals have to be applied. Fundamentals are the same across the board.

For instance... with the Glock... one must take up the slack in the trigger first... THEN apply the fundamentals of slow press to the rear while keeping sights on target. If one does not know this... and simply starts their trigger press from the second their finger touches the trigger... speed that up a bit... and the shooter is essentially slapping the trigger.

Hope I'm being clear...

 

[Underwhere]

I'm not changing my approach to shooting when I pick up different pistols, so clearly there is some feature or difference in triggers or grips or something that causes my approach to work sometimes and not work other times.

Like we've been saying: brush up on fundamentals or get more trigger time and this shouldn't be an issue.

Your very arguments regarding your fundamentals are the same ones that tell us that you might be lacking in them.

I don't think we're getting our point across. You keep mentioning you can't shoot a particular gun. We keep telling you that it's related to fundamentals and practice. You keep telling us it's a gun fitment issue and that it can't be your fundamentals because you can shoot other ones.

 

[wolf223]

Like we've been saying: brush up on fundamentals or get more trigger time and this shouldn't be an issue.

Your very arguments regarding your fundamentals are the same ones that tell us that you might be lacking in them.

I don't think we're getting our point across. You keep mentioning you can't shoot a particular gun. We keep telling you that it's related to fundamentals and practice. You keep telling us it's a gun fitment issue and that it can't be your fundamentals because you can shoot other ones.

^ this ^


i will say however, a .40 caliber (especially a Glock 23/27) is the last pistol i'd let a "newer" shooter try out... the muzzle flip, kabooms alone will make them pee.

i'd toss them a 9mm all day...

 

[jbos6]

For instance... with the Glock... one must take up the slack in the trigger first... THEN apply the fundamentals of slow press to the rear while keeping sights on target. If one does not know this... and simply starts their trigger press from the second their finger touches the trigger... speed that up a bit... and the shooter is essentially slapping the trigger.

So there IS a difference in how this gun is fired compared to, say, a 1911 or a Sig P239? Something about the technique required to fire it accurately is different? Thank you, Hanwei, that's the point I've been trying to make all along (and perhaps failing at), that I believed there IS something different about the Glock. In 8 pages of thread, you're the first person to offer me an answer to my question of WHAT I could be doing wrong that could cause my difference in proficiency between the Glock and most other pistols I've shot. Can "taking up the slack in a trigger" be considered a fundamental if it's NOT necessary for all pistols? To my mind, a fundamental is something required across the board, and it doesn't sound like this qualifies under that definition, which would be why I continued to question what was wrong with my fundamentals. (Me, splitting hairs and arguing semantics? Never!!)

Underwhere, I disagree ... you got your point across. I was the one not getting *mine* across, or maybe not phrasing my question correctly. I wanted to know what could be different between the Glock and other pistols I'd shot. I didn't say it was necessarily a gun fitment issue, I'm actually pretty sure I specifically included trigger, grip size, etc. to toss out all of the possibilities I could think of, some difference that the Glock had that the others didn't. Sounds like Hanwei might have nailed it, and if so, thank you ... I'll definitely alter my trigger technique next time to see if it changes!

And WOW, have we gone off-topic! My original question was to ask for pistol recommendations for something similar to a 1911 for under $800, and it turned into this! I *never* should have mentioned my problems shooting a Glock, everyone glommed onto that!! :-D

 

[TheRoland]

My original question was to ask for pistol recommendations for something similar to a 1911 for under $800, and it turned into this! I *never* should have mentioned my problems shooting a Glock, everyone glommed onto that!! :-D

A used 1911 is your only option that's really "similar" to a 1911. I'm a 1911 nut, and also recommend the M&P with a post-purchase trigger job. I think the M&P is probably the finest current production handgun on the market right now.

 

[Supermoto]

Trigger press doesn't mean a thing. you can slap the trigger, press the trigger, pull the trigger, roll the trigger. The only fundamental is keeping the sights on target until the shot breaks. Everything else is an excuse for not doing that.

 

[Hanwei]

Sounds like Hanwei might have nailed it, and if so, thank you ... I'll definitely alter my trigger technique next time to see if it changes!

And WOW, have we gone off-topic! My original question was to ask for pistol recommendations for something similar to a 1911 for under $800, and it turned into this! I *never* should have mentioned my problems shooting a Glock, everyone glommed onto that!! :-D

Let us know how your next range trip with the Glock goes

As for something similar to a 1911 under $800... Well... I agree with TheRoland The only thing similar to a 1911 would be another 1911. If you shop around enough... you'll find used S&W 1911's for $650-800 easy. Though, they've always been full size. Most commanders/officers tend to be between $800-1000. Though I did purchase a Colt Officers for $699 years ago (and sold it some time later). They're out there... you just have to look.

 

[Underwhere]

So there IS a difference in how this gun is fired compared to, say, a 1911 or a Sig P239? Something about the technique required to fire it accurately is different? Thank you, Hanwei, that's the point I've been trying to make all along (and perhaps failing at), that I believed there IS something different about the Glock. In 8 pages of thread, you're the first person to offer me an answer to my question of WHAT I could be doing wrong that could cause my difference in proficiency between the Glock and most other pistols I've shot. Can "taking up the slack in a trigger" be considered a fundamental if it's NOT necessary for all pistols? To my mind, a fundamental is something required across the board, and it doesn't sound like this qualifies under that definition, which would be why I continued to question what was wrong with my fundamentals. (Me, splitting hairs and arguing semantics? Never!!)

Underwhere, I disagree ... you got your point across. I was the one not getting *mine* across, or maybe not phrasing my question correctly. I wanted to know what could be different between the Glock and other pistols I'd shot. I didn't say it was necessarily a gun fitment issue, I'm actually pretty sure I specifically included trigger, grip size, etc. to toss out all of the possibilities I could think of, some difference that the Glock had that the others didn't. Sounds like Hanwei might have nailed it, and if so, thank you ... I'll definitely alter my trigger technique next time to see if it changes!

And WOW, have we gone off-topic! My original question was to ask for pistol recommendations for something similar to a 1911 for under $800, and it turned into this! I *never* should have mentioned my problems shooting a Glock, everyone glommed onto that!! :-D

I will be honest here. Not trying to start a lame internet battle.

Sometimes people come on these boards and ask for advice yet do nothing but argue until someone agrees that they are right, ignoring all the advice that other people have provided. Let's backtrack a bit. We're trying to help, not prove you wrong. Most of us have been where you are. There was a long while when I shot Glocks pretty horribly relative to my other guns. I now compete and carry one after learning quite a bit.

The Glock trigger is definitely different. It definitely helps to stage the trigger or catch the reset. It has nothing to do with your shooting problems. Those are fundamental issues regardless of gun. I'm pretty sure Hanwei agrees but doesn't want to come off too strong because everyone else is already providing that advice. He can pick up any gun and shoot it well given a brief period to get comfortable with it.

Advice on a gun:
If you want to carry something, just be aware that the 1911 is heavy, and a loaded mag with 45's is heavy. Carrying something like that all day will have an effect on you. I've been through my share of carry guns and settled on a polymer gun in 9mm. Lightweight, high capacity. Ugly and reliable.

Similar to a 1911? There is nothing other than a 1911. Different variations of course. If you're set on carrying something you might want to consider the S&W Scandium versions designated by "PD". They are lighter but flip a bit more because of it. I had one but sold it as I really didn't want to carry it.

You can get a 1911PD for under 800. Keep some money for a good holster (not Uncle Mike's but a molded holster specific to your gun) and a good gun belt. The belt is very important.

Oh, and buy used. Don't pay the retail markup. Let someone else work out the new gun kinks. You don't really want to spend $300 in ammo just to break it in and prove that is reliable. Let someone else do that. After all after your first shot the gun is technically used anyway and guns are made to last. My best 1911's are the ones that were used the most before I got them.

 

[vellnueve]

You can try a Para LDA. The triggers are pretty nice and they come in several different frame sizes. Test it well before you carry it, though, Paras can be hit or miss.

 

[C-pher]

A used 1911 is your only option that's really "similar" to a 1911.

Similar to a 1911? There is nothing other than a 1911. Different variations of course. If you're set on carrying something you might want to consider the S&W Scandium versions designated by "PD". They are lighter but flip a bit more because of it. I had one but sold it as I really didn't want to carry it.

I want to argue this if I may. The only thing that's "like" a 1911 isn't only a 1911. I would aruge that the Colt Mustang is very much like a 1911 without being a 1911. It's also a very nice gun to shoot, and it's very easy to carry. Granted, it's in .380...but it's got the feel of a 1911. It's just WAY smaller and not a .45.

You can try a Para LDA. The triggers are pretty nice and they come in several different frame sizes. Test it well before you carry it, though, Paras can be hit or miss.

I'm going to agree here. I would try to go with Older P series Para's that were made in Canada about 6-10 years ago. All of mine are from this time frame and I don't have a probem with any...not even my P-10. Which the Warthog is known for feeding issues.

 

[jbos6]

Sometimes people come on these boards and ask for advice yet do nothing but argue until someone agrees that they are right, ignoring all the advice that other people have provided. Let's backtrack a bit. We're trying to help, not prove you wrong. Most of us have been where you are. There was a long while when I shot Glocks pretty horribly relative to my other guns. I now compete and carry one after learning quite a bit.

I have tried my absolute best to *not* argue or be argumentative, and I've gone out of my way to clarify when I was asking a question that could be misconstrued as being flippant or sarcastic. I hope that has translated!!

It seems, from what I've gathered, that the Glock trigger leaves me vulnerable to bad trigger habits. Now that someone has explained *why* the Glock trigger can be tough to master and what can be done about it, I understand far better the statements that the Glock was "exposing" bad habits. I don't do those things elsewhere because the way those guns fire I don't have the opportunity to do something wrong, it just shoots the way I want to shoot. I have agreed all along that I can always use more practice to get better and eliminate bad habits or technique, but I knew there was *something* about that Glock that was causing me to do bad things whereas other pistols didn't have the something.

Thank you, also, for coming back around to the original question (and thanks to all who have *answered* the initial question!) We had all meandered so far that I actually had to go back and read my OP just to remember what I had asked in the first place! I also appreciate the input about buying used.

 

[Underwhere]

I have tried my absolute best to *not* argue or be argumentative, and I've gone out of my way to clarify when I was asking a question that could be misconstrued as being flippant or sarcastic. I hope that has translated!!

It seems, from what I've gathered, that the Glock trigger leaves me vulnerable to bad trigger habits. Now that someone has explained *why* the Glock trigger can be tough to master and what can be done about it, I understand far better the statements that the Glock was "exposing" bad habits. I don't do those things elsewhere because the way those guns fire I don't have the opportunity to do something wrong, it just shoots the way I want to shoot. I have agreed all along that I can always use more practice to get better and eliminate bad habits or technique, but I knew there was *something* about that Glock that was causing me to do bad things whereas other pistols didn't have the something.

Thank you, also, for coming back around to the original question (and thanks to all who have *answered* the initial question!) We had all meandered so far that I actually had to go back and read my OP just to remember what I had asked in the first place! I also appreciate the input about buying used.

I don't believe anyone is saying the Glock trigger leaves you vulnerable to bad habits. I shoot primarily Glocks and I am not developing bad trigger habits (maybe bad cleaning habits). Triggers are different per gun. You may like ones more than others but I'll be a broken record and say that for the type of shooting you were doing at the range it doesn't matter. The problem is not the trigger.

The best thing about shooting is that practice isn't a chore. It's just expensive.

Good luck with your first gun. Everyone should have a 1911.