Duel Residency handgun purchase

[Harleynut]

I have a question on “Duel Residency” Mass and NH. I was talking with someone over the weekend and we got talking guns. He is a Mass resident drives a car with Mass plates etc. He owns a summer home in NH that he pays taxes on. He went on to tell me that he was told at a gun shop that he has the right to purchase handguns in NH because he owns property and pays taxes there. He went on to say that he has made several handgun purchases from them and has planned more.
I had thought you could only purchase a handgun in your home state and it would be a violation of fed law to do otherwise.
I am looking forward to hearing what others have to say about this.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Assuming he "Resides" in NH and MA, Which is not what you describe.

He would be able to purchase firearms in either state. He would still not be able to bring in any Post ban Hi cap Mags and AWB equipment. But he would not have to deal with Eops and AG stuff on his NH purchases.

 

[Lugnut]

What the heck does he provide to the gun shop owner in NH for ID??? They won't take a MA DL and an electric bill won't likely cut it. I'm curious about this as well...

 

[Another_David]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm

(B12) May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Exactly - the most common shop reaction is going to be "We understand you have dual residency, but unless your LTC or driver's license lists this state, we're not going to get into that and risk problems just to make this single sale".

 

[Flyer007]

So it looks like I should move the camper to NH for the summer season instead of the cape and reside there.

Since living at the camper all summer doesn't get me resident beach sticker, I might as well be able to get the pistols I want at non MA prices.....

 

[Another_David]

google: proof of residency firearms

CA accepts utility bills. I would think NH would too (provided you hicks have utilities ).

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/resprf.php

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Since living at the camper all summer doesn't get me resident beach sticker

Want to have some fun? Try registering to vote - they are subject to stricter legal requirements - as college towns trying to prevent students from registering to vote declaring "dorms don't make you a resident" or "having an apartment just to go to college does not make you a resident".

CA accepts utility bills. I would think NH would too (provided you hicks have utilities )

Equally important is what form of documentation a dealer is willing to bet his FFL on.

 

[Harleynut]

From what he told me the gun shop encouraged it. This gave them a chance to do more business with him. As he said and I agree he prefers whats avaiable to him to buy in NH over Mass. It's a well known shop that I don't want to mention by name here and bring any heat down on them.

 

[Len-2A Training]

What if . . .

The person got a NH RESIDENT pistol permit from the chief local to where he owns property AND LIVES THERE for some defined part of the year?

That would be all that a NH FFL would need for proof that the person meets the BATFE definition quoted above.

 

[KMaurer]

Equally important is what form of documentation a dealer is willing to bet his FFL on.

This is what it all come down to. If you really live in the state for more than just a 2 week summer vacation, then you're clearly satisfying the requirements spelled out by BATF. But since there's nothing that requires any dealer to sell to any particular person, it's all about finding a dealer who's comfortable dealing with the issue. As with some other sensitive situations that have been mentioned (discretely) elsewhere on the forum, some dealers will make the sale, others will refrain.

Ken

 

[RKBA]

What if . . .

The person got a NH RESIDENT pistol permit from the chief local to where he owns property AND LIVES THERE for some defined part of the year?

That would be all that a NH FFL would need for proof that the person meets the BATFE definition quoted above.

I think the problem for MA, NY and other "gun-unfriendly" states is that although 27 CFR 478.11 provides for "dual residency" from a federal law perspective, the state firearms licensing laws aren't written to provide the neccessary leeway for an individual to retain his or her firearms license in state A while also obtaining and possessing a resident firearms license in state B.

As a practical matter, I think that if MA authorities found out that the MA-licensed individual had obtained a RESIDENT firearms license/permit from another state, then they would revoke the existing MA LTC pursuant to Ch. 140, Section 131 (f) :

(f) A license issued under this section shall be revoked or suspended by the licensing authority, or his designee, upon the occurrence of any event that would have disqualified the holder from being issued such license or from having such license renewed. A license may be revoked or suspended by the licensing authority if it appears that the holder is no longer a suitable person to possess such license. ....​

on the grounds that the individual had established residency in another state, and was therefore disqualified from possessing a RESIDENT LTC from MA.

Now, if state B was VT (or perhaps even FL), then I suppose it might work, but there's still a risk that MA authorities would revoke the MA LTC if the MA non-residency was discovered....

 

[Len-2A Training]

And how would they KNOW you had a Resident (as opposed to a NR) permit? You put down on an app what you have and license number (I think), but don't have to give copies or explain what "variety" of license you have.

Remember, loose lips sink ships.

NO need to tell and you don't have to lie either.

It's not like DLs where one state makes you turn in the other state's license and they actually check a national database to see if someone has multiple DLs.

 

[RKBA]

You may be right LenS - I've never applied for a RESIDENT MA LTC. It indeed may not be automatic that they would find out. However, here's a little further information that may give you and others pause:

I'm not sure if it's the same on the RESIDENT LTC application, but the first question on the NON-RESIDENT MA LTC is

Do you hold, or have you ever held a license to carry firearms in this or any other state?
If "YES", when, where and license number: _____________
Does/did the license have restrictions, and if so what are/were they? _____________
​

So, when I prepared my application package, I included a listing of all of my current and previous firearms licenses in a table as an attachment to the application form. I knew that the NYS ones would show up on my NYS criminal history report -- my NYS firearms licenses are the only entries on my NYS criminal history report. (By the way, my NYS criminal history report had an attempted record of my legal residences, as submitted with my various NYS firearms license applications and renewals over the years.)

Anyway, after submitting the MA NR LTC application, I had occasion to speak with a helpful young fellow at CHSB/EOPS, who told me that they have an agreement in place with NYS that requires that they share criminal history information directly with the NYS DCJS (it sounded like the sharing was electronic/online).

He didn't mention any other direct agreements with any other states, but it's possible there might be similar relationships with states other than NY. I don't know if RESIDENT MA LTC applications/renewals trigger such direct records checks with other states, but if they do, and if other states include firearms license information in their criminal records, then there is a risk that the dual-residency strategy might result in revocation of the holders MA RESIDENT LTC.

 

[Len-2A Training]

MA Resident form asks where and license #. Doesn't ask about restrictions. Even if they do a records check from most states, I seriously doubt that addresses show up. The mere fact that you/I possess multiple state gun licenses does not indicate status (res or NR in most cases).

Some exceptions: States like NY that have no provision for NR licenses might be a "give away" IFF we assume that the local PD has a clue what other states' laws are wrt licensing. Since so few in MA even understand MA gun laws, I think it a safe bet that they would have no idea if a given state issues NR or not.

Also, there is NO LAW that prohibits dual residency wrt MA. It is strictly an "opinion" of EOPS that students, summer residents, etc be denied a resident permit. I'm certain that in some gun friendly towns or where someone is "connected" that they have issued a LTC to a part-time resident.

 

[RKBA]

Agree on most everything, especially the unique situation with respect to NY lacking non-resident licenses being a giveaway.

Since so few in MA even understand MA gun laws, I think it a safe bet that they would have no idea if a given state issues NR or not.

100% agree!

Also, there is NO LAW that prohibits dual residency wrt MA. It is strictly an "opinion" of EOPS that students, summer residents, etc be denied a resident permit.

What about the interplay of the two MA requirements (i) that you have to be a resident in the town to obtain a resident LTC from the local COP (or own a business in the town), and (ii) that you have to notify the licensing authority within x days of moving? Could they snag someone for failing to notify of a "move" to state B? What if the "move" isn't permanent, as in the case of dual residency? Does the establishment of residency in state B pursuant to 27 CFR 478.11 constitute a reportable "move" for MA LTC purposes?

In NY, depending upon the licensing authority, moves to different jurisdictions or states can operate as an automatic cancellation of a NYS handgun license.

I'm certain that in some gun friendly towns or where someone is "connected" that they have issued a LTC to a part-time resident.

I've got to believe that this has happened more than a few times. Any suggestions on how to get "connected"?

 

[Len-2A Training]

RKBA, I'd contend that if you still own the MA residence and plan on returning that you don't need to notify and don't lose that as a residence. e.g. college students . . . I suspect some get resident permits in both states (most MA towns will refuse), US Military . . . I know of such cases here in MA where someone is stationed in MA but has legal residence in another state and got a MA Resident LTC (I also know that some Military have been turned away).

I strongly suggest some movie stars, very high rollers (e.g Trump) . . . people with multiple homes, have received NYC and CA permits due to their "stature" ("commoner" with same home situation would never have received the permits).

I have reason to believe that some MA <heavy tourist area> chiefs have been so inclined for some seasonal residents.

 

[RKBA]

I think that you're right - if you have a 2nd home "to which you always intend to return" (as at least one of the statutory definitions of "resident" is worded), I don't think going back and forth qualifies as "moving", so there is no trigger of the address change notification provision from the licensing authority. But that's my (our) opinion.

I totally agree that high rollers, celebrities and the "connected" get different treatment in subjective 'may issue' jurisdictions like NY and MA. It's well documented in NY, where handgun licensee records are publicly available. (The hypocrisy revealed by those records is stunning, and ought to shock other anti-gun people, but as you might expect no one seems to care.)

Sadly, I think the reality is that in gun-unfriendly jurisdictions (e.g., NYC, many downstate NY counties, red towns in MA), where licensing is subjective, 'suitability-based' and/or 'may issue', you're risking your state A resident license by getting a simultaneous resident license in state B.

But perhaps that is too conservative a view. I think I'll ask my MA COP's licensing guy what he thinks the next time I'm over by the station.

 

[Another_David]

The ATF does cite this situation for certain members of the armed forces whereby they can have dual residency. However, in the OP's situation the term Dual Residency is a misnomer. At any given time he's a resident of the one state he is residing. His residency may change frequently, but he's never a resident of two different states. If this is the case, he has a hangup in Massachusetts because I believe Mass requires you to surrender your resident LTC when you're no longer a resident.

(B11) What constitutes residency in a State? [Back]

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

 

[Len-2A Training]

Another David, please show me where it says in MGLs that a "snowbird" MUST surrender his/her LTC (and DL for that matter) when they move South for the Winter?



I'll be waiting for that answer.

 

[Another_David]

Another David, please show me where it says in MGLs that a "snowbird" MUST surrender his/her LTC (and DL for that matter) when they move South for the Winter?

I never said they did. However, if that bird were to claim they were a resident of Florida to purchase handguns in Florida, I would think that this would apply:

Massachusetts General Law Chapter 140, Section 131(l) states:
Any licensee shall notify, in writing, the licensing authority who issued said license, the chief of police into
whose jurisdiction the licensee moves and the executive director of the criminal history systems board of any
change of address. Such notification shall be made by certified mail within 30 days of its occurrence. Failure to
so notify shall be cause for revocation or suspension of said license.

but I am not a lawyer so it's just speculation

 

[RKBA]

I guess that's the crux of the issue: if you travel out of the commonwealth to your other residence in another state, have you "changed your address" and/or "moved" so as to trigger the notification provision in M.G.L. Chapter 140 Section 131. (l)? I would think not - the average MA snowbird doesn't inform his or her COP and CHSB every time he or she travels to another residence out of state (regardless of what other firearms licenses he or she may or may not possess).

Two questions for the group:

1. Is Ch. 140 Sec. 131 (l) the only part of the M.G.L.s and associated regulations that governs licensee responsibilities with respect to notification regarding address changes etc.?
   
2. Is there any provision in the M.G.L.s or in the associated regulations that provides for automatic cancellation of a MA LTC upon cessation of MA "residency" or establishment of "residency" in another state?

Where are all of our great MA legal minds on this one?

 

[Another_David]

I think this is one of those legal gray areas and best left un-investigated--because you know the MA AG isn't going to rule in favor of the gun owner. I just get a little peeved when someone claims "dual residency". That's not something one should flaunt. I hope I'm wrong on this one.

 

[Len-2A Training]

RKBA,

So far nobody needs a VISA (MC/Amex do just fine thank you ) in order to "exit" the state of mass confusion to live in a different state for x months of the year. Therefore, there is no reason to "notify the authorities" and cancel your DL and LTC on each transition.

On notification of address changes to an out of state address . . .

- Currently there is no mechanism to nullify the LTC w/o causing "harm" to the individual. It is no longer legally valid, but it is left to expire on its own.

- Some cities/towns have "suspended" or "revoked" the person's LTC. However, they have been told by the appropriate authorities to NOT do that! Doing this causes a black mark on one's record and turns up when any of the other 47 states do a query on the individual . . . therefore requiring the applicant to explain WHY they were "suspended" or "revoked" (and they likely won't know it until the PD in the new state accuses them of "lying" on their application )! It's like a "false arrest" . . . in MA it's never expunged and will haunt you forever, requiring explanations and implying negatively on one's "suitability" after a background check.

 

[gws1063]

Back to the OP topic for a moment I, too, have been in a NH shop that claimed to accept a property tax bill as sufficient proof of residence even for those whose primary residence (and driver's license) was MA. All depends on the dealer, I suppose.

Regarding the ATF, I was a bit surprised at my last C&R compliance review when the agent volunteered "Now, when you get that property in NH, just apply for a second C&R license. As long as you keep separate sets of records for MA and NH, you'll be fine."

I hadn't said ANYTHING to lead him to believe that I was even interested in dual residency or a second C&R! I was starting to wonder if he had searched title transfers in other states as prep for the review, but then I put the tinfoil hat back down and decided that he was just being overly- helpful. The BATFE is helpful, right? . . . right????

-Gary

 

[RKG]

Also, there is NO LAW that prohibits dual residency wrt MA. It is strictly an "opinion" of EOPS that students, summer residents, etc be denied a resident permit. I'm certain that in some gun friendly towns or where someone is "connected" that they have issued a LTC to a part-time resident.

Len: if you mean there is no Massachusetts statute that expressly addresses the issue of "dual residency" with respect to firearms licensing, you are correct.

However, the Massachusetts common law firmly defines and treats the subject of residence (or "domicile") in an exclusive manner, one that admits of a person being a "resident" of only one state at a time.

 

[steveyc272]

Thanks for some great information. Opinions like those stated on this subject are tough to find.

On topic, here's my situation: I have a LTC-A in Mass that does not expire until 2014. My residency used to acquire the license was/is my parents house.

I have rented an apartment in NH to go to school, for 3 years. I am not changing my address because I do not want to lose my MA LTC. I will be returning to that residency for periods of time throughout the year. After school, I'm planning on moving back to MA, although there is a chance that I could stay in NH.

I applied for my Non-Resident NH pistol permit in April, check still not cashed (I left a message today to inquire). If they did not receive my application for some reason, could I apply for a Resident pistol permit? On the application, there is a question for my "legal address" - Would I have to give my MA address there, seeing as though that's where my driver's license is issued and where I am registered to vote?

I understand there may be an issue if I were to renew my MA LTC and had a NH Resident permit at the same time, however this will not be the case. Even if I chose to stay in NH, I will permanently change my address to NH.

Frankly, I am fine with a non-resident permit as I do not plan on having any funds to purchase a firearm in a while. However, the prospect of acquiring a resident permit, thus the ability to purchase a pistol in NH, is very enticing. Thanks in advance for your input. Steve

 

[johnN]

i work with a guy that has a DL and resident ccw permits in both MA and NH.

i have no idea how he did it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Maybe NH recognizes college students as "residents"? MA does NOT!

Ask the Chief in the town you will be living in during school. Level with him wrt residency and see what he says.

Per Fed Law, your situation wrt firearms purchases qualifies as a "dual residency". Whether NH will agree or not is for you to determine.

Good luck.

I'm sure that NH didn't lose your application. They are swamped and taking 4 months+ on average these days.

 

[drgrant]

i work with a guy that has a DL and resident ccw permits in both MA and NH.

i have no idea how he did it.

You can "do" it, but chances are, legally speaking, that he's likely still only technically a resident of one state or the other. Most of the time the new state requires you to surrender your DL from the old one (with some exceptions here and there) although I have no idea if the old one goes inactive in the DMV of the state that you came from. He probably just gave them a duplicate DL or something, or said he lost it or something.

A friend of mine moved down to MD and had an MD and an MA DL for awhile... until some LEO down there saw his MA DL in his wallet and then confiscated it on the spot.

There's also the issue of having to rely on a permit if you're not actually a resident. I'm not sure if NH cares or not, but I know that
an MA resident LTC is declared "invalid" when you take up residency outside of MA.

-Mike