Dots, lasers, and does size matter?

[M1911]

Motivation:

After some recent threads, I decided to do a little testing to try to test some assertions that repeatedly come up whenever we discuss red dots versus iron sights. These are some of the assertions that typically get thrown out every time we have thread about red dots or lasers:

1. You'll never see the dot when up close.
2. Red dots are slower up close because you will be looking for the dot.
3. Lasers are the fastest sighting device.
4. 45 ACP causes slower follow-up shots than 9mm.
5. Full sized guns are easier to shoot than compact sized guns and thus will be faster.
6. Larger red dots are easier to use than smaller red dots. Red dots with larger windows are easier to use than red dots with smaller windows.
7. You do/don't need backup iron sights with red dots

Note: I'm not saying I agree with all of these assertions. Some of them I disagree with. My goal was to try to do an objective test of these assertions.

Lame Excuses:

I'm very out of practice. I did no shooting for six months last year and only started doing some shooting again during the summer of 2023. I did this test last Saturday, after not having shot at all for a couple months.

I'm over 60 and am in the early stages of cataracts, so my eye sight isn't great. I also have presbyopia, which makes it hard for me to focus on iron sights. Almost all of my shooting for the last 5 years has been with red dots.

The Guns:

1. Glock 19 Gen 5, RMR, all-black suppressor height iron sights, Glock minus connector. This is my usual carry gun.
2. Glock 19 Gen 4, no red dot, tritium front sight, all black rear sight, Glock minus connector.
3. Glock 34 Gen 5, SRO, standard Glock plastic sights (which are blocked by the red dot), Apex trigger. This is my usual competition gun.
4. Kimber 1911, 5", Crimson Trace laser grips, tritium front sight with all-black rear sight. ~3.5 lb trigger. I haven't shot this gun in about 10 years and haven't changed the laser battery in about 15 years.
5. 4" Smith & Wesson Model 19, Crimson Trace laser grips, gold bead front sight, all-black rear target sight blade, ~7 lb DA trigger. I haven't shot this gun in about 10 years and haven't changed the laser battery in about 15 years.

The Test:

I performed my test on a USPSA target at 10' and 25'. I wanted to also do 50', but didn't have time. For each distance, gun, and condition, I did 5 runs of two shots each. To reduce the variables, I started from low-ready, with the gun pointed at the base of the target stand (right at the ground level), with my finger on the trigger and my eyes looking at the A-zone of the target.

Ideally, this test would be performed with multiple shooters, switching up the order of the guns shot. But it was just me, and the test wasn't repeated or performed by multiple shooters. So this is a limited data set.

 

[M1911]

Results at 10'

Gun:	Glock 19 Gen 5, RMR, Dot on
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.75	0.99	AA	10	10.10
2	0.71	0.92	AC	8	8.70
3	0.83	1.05	AA	10	9.52
4	0.77	0.97	AA	10	10.31
5	0.68	0.89	AA	10	11.24
Average	0.75	0.96		9.60	9.97
Std dev	0.06	0.06		0.89	0.94
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.84	1.09	AA	10	9.17
2	0.68	0.87	AC	8	9.20
3	0.62	0.8	AA	10	12.50
4	0.63	0.83	AA	10	12.05
5	0.7	0.9	AA	10	11.11
Average	0.69	0.90		9.60	10.81
Std dev	0.09	0.11		0.89	1.56
Gun:	Glock 19 Gen 5, RMR, Dot off
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.86	1.06	AA	10	9.43
2	0.66	0.86	AA	10	11.63
3	0.62	0.82	AA	10	12.20
4	0.7	0.9	AA	10	11.11
5	0.74	0.92	AC	8	8.70
Average	0.72	0.91		9.60	10.61
Std dev	0.09	0.09		0.89	1.49
Gun:	Glock 19, Gen 4, iron sights
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.7	0.89	AA	10	11.24
2	0.64	0.82	AA	10	12.20
3	0.74	0.94	AA	10	10.64
4	0.69	0.88	AA	10	11.36
5	0.76	0.96	AA	10	10.42
Average	0.71	0.90		10.00	11.17
Std dev	0.05	0.05		0.00	0.70
Gun:	Glock 34, SRO, Dot on
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.77	1	AA	10	10.00
2	0.63	0.81	AA	10	12.35
3	0.72	0.97	AA	10	10.31
4	0.58	0.78	AA	10	12.82
5	0.62	0.83	AA	10	12.05
Average	0.66	0.88		10.00	11.50
Std dev	0.08	0.10		0.00	1.27
Gun:	Glock 34, SRO, Dot off
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.88	1.09	AA	10	9.17
2	0.67	0.86	AA	10	11.63
3	0.7	0.89	AA	10	11.24
4	0.68	0.88	AC	8	9.09
5	0.62	0.81	AC	8	9.88
Average	0.71	0.91		9.20	10.20
Std dev	0.10	0.11		1.10	1.17
Gun:	Kimber, 5" 1911, Crimson Trace Lasergrips, Laser on
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.69	0.92	AA	10	10.87
2	0.88	1.11	AC	9	8.11
3	0.91	0.95	AC	9	9.47
4	0.84	1.14	AA	10	8.77
5	0.62	1.17	AA	10	8.55
Average	0.79	1.06		9.60	9.15
Std dev	0.13	0.11		0.55	1.08
Gun:	Kimber, 5" 1911, Crimson Trace Lasergrips, Laser off
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.92	1.12	AA	10	8.93
2	0.73	0.94	AA	10	10.64
3	0.83	1.06	AA	10	9.43
4	0.72	0.95	AA	10	10.53
5	0.79	1.02	AA	10	9.80
Average	0.80	1.02		10.00	9.87
Std dev	0.08	0.08		0.00	0.72
Gun:	S&W Model 19, 4", Crimson Trace Lasergrips, Laser on
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	1	1.25	AA	10	8.00
2	0.98	1.23	AA	10	8.13
3	0.75	0.99	AA	10	10.10
4	0.7	1.2	AA	10	8.33
5	0.71	0.96	AA	10	10.42
Average	0.83	1.13		10.00	9.00
Std dev	0.15	0.14		0.00	1.16
Gun:	S&W Model 19, 4", Crimson Trace Lasergrips, Laser off
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.8	1.04	AA	10	9.62
2	0.7	0.95	AA	10	10.53
3	0.66	0.91	AA	10	10.99
4	0.81	1.05	AA	10	9.52
5	0.69	0.95	AA	10	10.53
Average	0.73	0.98		10.00	10.24
Std dev	0.07	0.06		0.00	0.64

 

[M1911]

Comments for 10' Results:

1. I started with my Glock 19 Gen 5, with the dot on. I thought my first test of 5 runs was terrible, so I did it again. I found that for most most of the runs I saw the red dot. It was a flash view of the red dot -- I didn't stabilize the red dot on the target because at that distance I just didn't need to. My second set of runs was a bit better than my first.
2. I then did a run with the Glock 19 Gen 5, but with the dot turned off. This was to answer the assertion that if the dot fails you are screwed. I found essentially no difference at 10' with the dot off or dot on -- my speed and accuracy were basically the same.
3. My run with the Glock 19 Gen 4 (iron sights only) was to try to answer the assertion that "red dots are slower up close". My hit factor on my second test with the Gen 5 red dot on was 10.81. For the iron-sighted Glock 19, my hit factor was 11.17. Was I faster with the iron sighted gun up close than the red dot? Yes, but only slightly. Was that speed difference by chance or was it statistically significant? I didn't perform enough testing to know whether it was statistically significant.
4. My Glock 34 is a larger gun than the Glock 19 and the SRO has a significantly larger sight with clearer glass than the RMR. The goal of using the Glock 34 is to answer the question "does size matter"? My best group of runs with the Glock 19 RMR on was 10.81. With the Glock 34 and the red dot on, my hit factor was 11.50. I noticed that with the Glock 34 at low ready, I could see the dot in my peripheral vision when the gun was pointed at low ready and I was focusing on the target. It was much easier for me to track the dot as I raised the gun, so I was more likely to see the dot while shooting. So, in my opinion, size of the window of the red dot does matter.
5. With the Glock 34 and the SRO off, my hit factor was 10.20. Since I have the stock Glock plastic sights on my 34, those sights are not visible through the SRO. So with the SRO off, I was sighting just using the outline of the SRO over the target. My hit factor for the Glock 19 with the RMR off was 10.61, so I was better with that than the 34 with the SRO off. I attribute that to the fact that I can see the backup iron sights on the Glock 19 but not the Glock 34. So I think backup iron sights are important when you have a red dot on your pistol.
6. My hit factor was noticeably worse with my Kimber 1911. My splits were noticeably slower. I was able to see the laser dot on the target at 10' but it wasn't bright. I don't know if it is because the battery is old. I will change the battery and see if that makes the laser more visible.
7. At 10', I was faster and more accurate with the laser off on my Kimber 1911 than with the laser on. I don't know if this was by chance or if it was statistically significant.
8. Shooting the .45 ACP 1911 confirmed to me that 9mm is better for me given my current strength.
9. I had the same issues with laser visibility with the S&W Model 19 at 10' as I did with the Kimber 1911 -- the laser dot was hard to see. I will replace the battery and see if it helps. I was noticeably faster (but not by a huge amount -- about 1/10 of a second) with the laser off. I was surprised at my ability to see the iron sights on my S&W Model 19. I was also surprised by how much more accurate I was with the S&W Model 19 versus any of the semi-autos.

 

[M1911]

Results at 25':

Gun:	Glock 19 Gen 5, RMR, Dot on
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.92	1.42	AA	10	7.04
2	0.96	1.38	AC	8	5.80
3	1.19	1.6	AA	10	6.25
4	0.82	1.16	AA	10	8.62
5	0.78	1.1	AC	8	7.27
Average	0.93	1.33		9.20	7.00
Std dev	0.16	0.20		1.10	1.09
Gun:	Glock 19 Gen 5, RMR, Dot off
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.91	1.28	AA	10	7.81
2	1.3	1.67	AA	10	5.99
3	0.95	1.41	AC	8	5.67
4	1.19	1.51	AC	8	5.30
5	1	1.62	AD	6	3.70
Average	1.07	1.50		8.40	5.70
Std dev	0.17	0.16		1.67	1.47
Gun:	Glock 19, Gen 4, iron sights
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	1.08	1.82	AA	10	5.49
2	0.91	1.47	AC	8	5.44
3	0.97	1.62	AA	10	6.17
4	0.96	1.55	AA	10	6.45
5	1.72	2.25	AA	10	4.44
Average	1.13	1.74		9.60	5.60
Std dev	0.34	0.31		0.89	0.78
Gun:	Glock 34, SRO, Dot on
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	0.82	1.12	AA	10	8.93
2	0.92	1.26	AA	10	7.94
3	0.75	1.31	AC	8	6.11
4	0.74	1.2	AA	10	8.33
5	0.82	1.26	AA	10	7.94
Average	0.81	1.23		9.60	7.85
Std dev	0.07	0.07		0.89	1.05
Gun:	Glock 34, SRO, Dot off
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	1.28	1.79	CC	6	3.35
2	1.07	1.42	CC	6	4.23
3	1.08	1.52	CC	6	3.95
4	0.94	1.49	AD	6	4.03
5	0.96	1.51	AD	6	3.97
Average	1.07	3.00		6.00	3.91
Std dev	0.14	0.14		0.00	0.33
Gun:	S&W Model 19, 4", Crimson Trace Lasergrips, Laser on
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	1.37	1.81	AA	10	5.52
2	1.11	1.74	AC	8	4.60
3	1.65	1.5	AC	8	5.33
4	0.87	1.37	AC	8	5.84
5	1.12	1.5	AC	8	5.33
Average	1.22	1.58		8.40	5.33
Std dev	0.30	0.18		0.89	0.46
Gun:	S&W Model 19, 4", Crimson Trace Lasergrips, Laser off
Run	First shot	Second shot	Score	Points	Hit Factor
1	1	1.55	AC	8	5.16
2	0.83	1.3	AC	8	6.15
3	1.06	1.38	AD	6	4.35
4	0.86	1.33	AA	10	7.52
5	0.82	1.43	AA	10	6.99
Average	0.91	1.40		8.40	6.03
Std dev	0.11	0.10		1.67	1.30

 

[M1911]

Comments on 25' Results:

1. At 25', I was significantly better with the red dot. My hit factor with the Glock 19 RMR, red dot on, was 7.0. With the red dot off, it was 5.7. My hit factor with the iron sighted Glock 19 was basically identical to the Glock 19 Gen 5 with the RMR off -- 5.6 versus 5.7.
2. At 25', I was significantly faster with the Glock 34 with the SRO on: hit factor of 7.85 (versus 7.0 for the Glock 19 RMR).
3. At 25', with the Glock 34 with the SRO off, I was terrible: hit factor of 3.91. My shots were mostly low. On this gun, I can't see the stock plastic sights through the SRO window, so with the SRO off I was just using the outline of the SRO on the target. Takeaway: backup sights are important when using red dots on pistols if you are concerned about your red dot failing.
4. At 25' with the S&W Model 19, I had a very hard time seeing the laser on the target. I was faster with the iron sights.
5. I did not try the Kimber at 25'.

 

[M1911]

So, let's revisit the assertions that I was trying to test:

1. You'll never see the dot when up close.

That wasn't my experience. With the RMR at 10', I saw the dot about 1/2 the time. With the SRO, I always saw the dot.

2. Red dots are slower up close because you will be looking for the dot.

I was a bit slower with the red dot at 10' than with my iron sighted Glock 19 at 10' (hit factor 11.17 versus 10.81). Is that a meaningful difference? I don't think so, but you be the judge.

3. Lasers are the fastest sighting device.

That wasn't my experience, but this wasn't a great test because 1) I didn't have a Glock 19 with a laser and 2) the batteries on my lasers were old. I will replace the batteries and see if that makes the laser dot easier to see. So I think my results on this are inconclusive.

4. 45 ACP causes slower follow-up shots than 9mm.

That was the case for me, at least comparing my 5" Kimber to my Glock 19 and 34. The difference wasn't huge at 10', but it was noticeable.

5. Full sized guns are easier to shoot than compact sized guns and thus will be faster.

I think the main difference that I saw in speed comparing the Glock 19 to the Glock 34 was due to the SRO on the Glock 34, not due to the size of the Glock 34. The only conclusive way to test this would be to repeat the test with an RMR on the Glock 34.

6. Larger red dots are easier to use than smaller red dots. Red dots with larger windows are easier to use than red dots with smaller windows.

The SRO has a much larger window than the RMR and the glass on the SRO is clearer. As a result, I find the SRO is much easier to use than the RMR. It's bigger, easier to keep the dot in the window, and the glass is clearer.

7. You do/don't need backup iron sights with red dots.

At longer distances, point-shooting using just the outline of the SRO didn't work well for me at all. I was far better with the Glock 19 Gen 5 using the backup sights with the RMR turned off. If you are worried about the red dot failing, then backup sights are a must.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

My thoughts, since you asked.

1. You'll never see the dot when up close. Not quite sure I understand this one. I have always been able to see my dot when shooting up close however that was with lots of practice first.
2. Red dots are slower up close because you will be looking for the dot. If you practice mounting the pistol with the red dot, the distance to target should be irrelevant.
3. Lasers are the fastest sighting device. Not in my experience. You'll be chasing that laser dot around like a cat on catnip.
4. 45 ACP causes slower follow-up shots than 9mm. This is more related to the pistol/load and your grip than anything.
5. Full sized guns are easier to shoot than compact sized guns and thus will be faster. Given similar weight of bullet and charge, I would agree.
6. Larger red dots are easier to use than smaller red dots. Easier? They may be easier for some shooters to pick up but then accuracy is not as precise.
7. You do/don't need backup iron sights with red dots. Depends on the use. For competition I've never had iron sights on my dot guns and never had them fail during a match. For self defense I can see the utility of iron backups.

Good luck in your quest.

 

[kalash]

Interesting results, thanks for sharing.

I've only been shooting with a red dot for 3mo and I'm still slower at close distances than with irons. However, I attribute that to the fact that I *do* see the dot - that's the problem for me, I'm having a hard time learning to trust my index. At a match this past weekend I consciously forced myself to hose a three-target array without paying any attention to the optic and I got all Alphas, so I know I can do it but I need to trust my own abilities. I'm convinced that with more training I'll be just as fast with the dot as with irons up close. The further the distance, the faster the dot is compared to irons until it's straight up faster, period. Accuracy beyond, say, 25' isn't even a close race, the dot wins by a mile.

TL;DL: red dots are superior, imho. I'm patiently waiting for the slide for my carry G19.5 to come back from getting milled so I can mount a red dot.

 

[M1911]

1. Larger red dots are easier to use than smaller red dots. Easier? They may be easier for some shooters to pick up but then accuracy is not as precise.

I apologize for my wording being imprecise. I've edited my posts above to make them clearer. What I meant was the size of the window, not the size of the red dot itself. In this case, I was comparing the size of the SRO's window, which is much larger than the size of the RMR's window. In addition, the SRO's glass is clearer than the RMR's glass. My RMR has a smaller dot (2 MOA) and my SRO has a larger dot (5 MOA, IIRC).

It would be interesting to compare dot sizes. Most of the pistol competition shooters that I see prefer larger dots over smaller dots.

I didn't notice any significant difference in the size of the dot itself. I did notice a very significant difference in the size of the window -- the larger window of the SRO was very helpful.

 

[M1911]

Lasers are the fastest sighting device. Not in my experience. You'll be chasing that laser dot around like a cat on catnip.

People say the same thing about red dots. I was slow with the lasers because I was having a hard time seeing the laser on the target not because I was chasing the dot.

 

[M1911]

A couple more things. As I was preparing my gear for this test, I noticed that my SRO was rocking on my slide. I have witness marks on the screws from the dot to the plate and those hadn’t moved. But the screws from the plate to the slide had loosened up. I hadn’t used enough loctite on those, so I had to remount the SRO. Lesson learned: grab your red dot and see if it rocks during your daily test.

Rather than just comment that I’m right or wrong about part of this test, I suggest that you try to repeat it. All you need are:

1. Your pistol(s)
2. A USPSA target
3. A shot timer

Do some objective testing to see if your assumptions are correct.

 

[Supermoto]

I did a similar test but I don't remember the exact times. I was doing a Mozambique drill.
For me, how well I could grip the gun while staying relaxed made the biggest difference in times, Dot or irons didn't matter. The fastest (open gun) .17s to slowest .24 (Springfield Hellcat) wasn't that huge. But all the 2011/1911 were within hundredths of each other and could easily swap positions. The smaller gun definietly were not going to move up.

Open gun
Limited gun
1911 9mm
1911 45
Sig 365Macro
Springfield Hellcat.

 

[M1911]

For me, how well I could grip the gun while staying relaxed made the biggest difference in times, Dot or irons didn't matter.

One of the things that I noticed with the Kimber is that the rubber Lasergrips weren't giving me very good purchase. My Wilson 1911 has some pretty aggressive https://vzgrips.com/ and a magwell. Next time I may try shooting that back to back with the Kimber. I'm betting the grips will make a noticeable difference.

 

[Supermoto]

One of the things that I noticed with the Kimber is that the rubber Lasergrips weren't giving me very good purchase. My Wilson 1911 has some pretty aggressive https://vzgrips.com/ and a magwell. Next time I may try shooting that back to back with the Kimber. I'm betting the grips will make a noticeable difference.

I use grip tape on all my gun. Gives great grip, sometimes too much

 

[M1911]

I use grip tape on all my gun. Gives great grip, sometimes too much
View attachment 850150

Yup, I've got grip tape on all my Glocks.

 

[MGnoob]

View: https://youtu.be/58alk3OnoGY?feature=shared