Does an M1 Garand purchased from CMP need to be logged into the C+R records? I did not send them my C+R (which did not exist at the time I filled out the forms), but the gun would of course otherwise qualify as a C&R.
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Do CMP purchases need to be logged in C+R book?
- Thread starter Prepper
- Start date
If you purchased the gun without using your C&R license and you did not acquire the gun for your collection, there's nothing in § 923 that says you have to record it in your bound book. Still, I think recording it is the safer way to go to avoid confusion, unless you plan to alter it from it's original configuration.
Rockrivr1
NES Member
What about if you owned a CMP Garand and THEN got your C&R? Would you put it into you bound book anyway? I'm in this situation and haven't added it, but am contemplating it just to be safe.
No, I wouldn't. Who would you enter it as received in from? Yourself?
Everything I've read, in my ATF paperwork and on C&R sites, says that when you are licensed to purchase C&R's, every C&R you purchase must be listed. It is coming to you therefore it must be listed.
Whether you present a copy of your license when purchasing or not..it makes no difference. You do NOT get the choice to either use your license to buy or not use your license to buy. You are licensed....period.
Just like a dealer, when he purchases a gun for any reason, it must be longed in his book. It he sells it, it gets logged out. If he keeps it for his personal use, it gets logged out.
It is also necessary to log out any guns that you purchased before you had your C&R. You do not need to log them in but you must log them out.
He bought it from the CMP, right? Then that's who he would list as seller. It doesn't need to be logged until sold.
Please be very careful about giving advise concerning the law.
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There's nothing in the ATF paperwork that you get with your C&R license which directly answers the question. However, it sounds like you haven't reviewed the C&R sites thoroughly enough.
Below is from an article on surplusrifle.com which compiles answers coming directly from the ATF to questions asked about C&R licenses.
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IF you have a C&R licence any C&R firearm you buy with or without the licence must be entered into the bound book. Any C&R firearm you sell while you have a C&R licence even if it was owned before you had you C&R, must still be entered into your bound book as going out.
Did you look at the post above? The ATF disagrees with you.
Very odd as the text in the C+R book I received does not distinguish between purchases made with or without the license. It simply states when an acquisition of a C+R eligible gun is made it must be logged.
WTF ATF, make up your mind!
WTF ATF, make up your mind!
The text of the law is very hard to understand, which is why this issue persists. You can read it either way, that all C&R eligible guns need to be logged, or that only guns that you are buying for the purpose of collecting them for their C&R value need to be logged. However, it makes the most sense to me (and it's backed up by that answer from the ATF) to think of your license and bound book as being only for your collection.
Just like an 01 FFL has different rules for logging guns into their bound book that they purchase for non-business use, an 03 FFL has different rules for logging guns that they purchase for sporting or defense use and not for their collection. For instance, if I buy an M1 Garand from the CMP with the intention of putting a nice new synthetic stock on it and a big fancy red dot sight, I am clearly not buying it as a C&R but as a sporting gun. In fact, as soon as I put those things on it, it loses it's C&R status. I couldn't buy one already like that with my C&R license. So entering it into my bound book as part of my C&R collection does not make sense.
I may scope this someday; that isn't enough of a modification to make it not a C&R, is it?
What's the worst that can happen if I get it wrong and the ATF reviews my inventory? Would they just tell me the correct thing to do, then I'd do it, and that'd be that? Or, would I be surrounded by 200 guys in black uniforms and tanks a short time later, like they would if I didn't pay a $5 tax?
What's the worst that can happen if I get it wrong and the ATF reviews my inventory? Would they just tell me the correct thing to do, then I'd do it, and that'd be that? Or, would I be surrounded by 200 guys in black uniforms and tanks a short time later, like they would if I didn't pay a $5 tax?
Technically, I believe it is. Unless you put a scope on it that is original to the gun/period.
Prepper said:
I think the overwhelming likelihood (though I'm talking out of my a** now, so take that for what it's worth) is that you'll never get a review anyway, and that if you do it's because you're in more trouble than worrying about issues like this.
The license doesn't allow you to 'use' the license to buy anything or not, you are the licensee and it is your actions that are licensed - all the time....not just when you think you should 'use' your license.
If you buy a C&R weapon, you are buying it as a licensed C&R holder.....period.
If you buy a modified C&R then it's not a C&R and doesn't have to be logged like other non C&R's .
Even if you choose not to agree with the law, What's the big deal with logging it? It's better to log it and not need to than violate the law by not doing it.
Better safe than sorry.
Read some of the C&R forums.
If you buy a C&R weapon, you are buying it as a licensed C&R holder.....period.
If you buy a modified C&R then it's not a C&R and doesn't have to be logged like other non C&R's .
Even if you choose not to agree with the law, What's the big deal with logging it? It's better to log it and not need to than violate the law by not doing it.
Better safe than sorry.
Read some of the C&R forums.
I understand your point of view, but the law is ambiguous and the ATF disagrees with your interpretation. No offense, but I'm going to follow what the ATF says.
Pilgrim said:
If you log something into your bound book, then it becomes part of your collection. Taking an inclusive stance on what you add to your collection, as you suggest, is not a bad idea as long as everything you log in is indeed C&R eligible. This is, in fact, what I recommended in my original post in order to avoid confusion. But it is not required. A CMP purchase is a great example of a C&R eligible gun that you may not be purchasing as part of your collection, but, in the spirit of the CMP, as a tool to help you with your marksmanship.
Pilgrim said:
I read plenty of C&R forums. But once again, I'm going to listen to what the ATF says, not to what a bunch of posters on various forums say.
Well, I guess we can agree to disagree....even if you are wrong !![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Heck, for you, Pilgrim? Anytime.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
I make a log of all my firearms purchases PERIOD! For my own records and for insurance purposes. That said, I haven't made a purchase using my C&R license, yet and haven't added my SKS which was purchased prior to the C&R to the C&R log specifically.
Good idea! Especially in this political climate. I also keep very detailed records of where and when I obtained all of my firearms, and where and when I got rid of them. All of my C&R guns go into my normal firearms record, where I keep receipts, FA-10s, delivery notices, etc. But only my C&R guns go into the "official" bound book. (For everybody's Info, I did log my CMP M1 into my C&R bound book
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
).I'm now the proud owner of an M1 Garand (which I have no idea what to do with yet or how to use it... that'll keep me busy). According to the serial #, it was made in 1955, so I'm sure that means it qualifies as C&R. But, I could just plan on modifying it and just not get around to it for a while, right? Then, it would be OK not to log it?
Looks like I also need to do the FA-10 form too. Of course, that's unrelated to C&R.
Looks like I also need to do the FA-10 form too. Of course, that's unrelated to C&R.
Even if you didn't ever plan on modifying it, if you didn't use your C&R license to purchase it you don't need to log it. But the question is, why don't you want to log it? Logging it in takes about a minute of your time and avoids confusion if you ever get audited by the ATF. If you are choosing not to log it, you better keep really good records that prove you didn't use your C&R license to purchase it. My arguing above that you don't need to log it was not in any way an argument that you shouldn't log it. As Pilgrim very rightfully pointed out, it's better to be safe than sorry.
You won't get into any trouble by logging an M1 into your C&R bound book.
one last post on this subject:
I see nothing in the following that says, "Do this if you 'use' your license to acquire a firearm":
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm
§ 178.125 Record of receipt and disposition (f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in [§ 27 C.F.R 178.125] (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall::..........................................
I posted this just to make me feel better about my opinon.
I see nothing in the following that says, "Do this if you 'use' your license to acquire a firearm":
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm
§ 178.125 Record of receipt and disposition (f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in [§ 27 C.F.R 178.125] (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall::..........................................
I posted this just to make me feel better about my opinon.
ok I lied about the last posting bit.
Here's the icing on the cake:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/011801ffl.htm
OPEN LETTER TO ALL FEDERALLY LICENSED COLLECTORS OF CURIO OR RELIC FIREARMS
Notice:
The purpose of this letter is to apprise Federally licensed collectors of pertinent regulations of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). A licensed collector is a collector of curios and relics only and is licensed and regulated under the provisions of 27 CFR Part 178. To be considered a curio or relic, a firearm must 1) have been manufactured at least 50 years ago; or 2) be certified as a curio or relic of museum interest by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum that exhibits firearms; or 3) derive a substantial amount of its monetary value from the fact that it is novel, rare, bizarre, or associated with some historical event, period, or figure. Below are some major "Do's" and "Don'ts" for collectors that are based on these provisions:
PROHIBITED
Cannot "engage in the business" of buying and selling curios and relics. The term "engaged in the business" refers to a person or entity that devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. A collector's license only enables the collector to obtain curio or relic firearms interstate.
Cannot acquire firearms other than curios or relics using a collector's license. Licensed collectors have no special privileges with regard to firearms that are not curios or relics.
AUTHORIZED
May acquire and dispose of curios or relics at any location.
May dispose of curios and relics to a licensee or a nonlicensee residing in the same State, who is not otherwise prohibited by the GCA, and to any other Federal firearms licensee in any State.
REQUIRED
Must prepare an acquisition and disposition (A/D) record as prescribed by 27 CFR 178.125(f). The A/D record shall be kept with the collection.
Must enter into the A/D record all curios and relics acquired after receipt of the collector's license.
Must provide a written notification as specified in ATF I 5300.2, Youth Handgun Safety Act Notice, when delivery of a handgun is made to a nonlicensee.
Must prepare ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, whenever the collector sells or otherwise disposes of--at one time or during any five consecutive business days--two or more pistols or revolvers or any combination thereof, to an unlicensed person.
Must report the theft or loss of a firearm within 48 hours of discovery, by telephoning 1-800-800-3855. Also, ATF Form 3310.11, Federal Firearms Theft/Loss Report, will be prepared in accordance with the instructions on the form.
REMINDER
To ensure compliance with recordkeeping requirements, any ATF officer may inspect the inventory and records of a licensed collector once during any 12-month period. At the election of the collector, the inspection may be performed at the ATF office nearest the place where the inventory and records of the collector are maintained.
CORRECTION NOTICE
Please make a correction to ATF P 5300.4 (01-00), Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide. In the format for "Firearms Collectors Acquisition and Disposition Record," at the bottom of page 70, under "Disposition," please delete "if licensee" immediately following "Driver's license No." The correct caption should read as follows: "Driver's license No. or other identification if nonlicensee."
If you have any questions about these requirements, please contact your local ATF office.
John P. Malone
Assistant Director
(Firearms, Explosives and Arson)
Here's the icing on the cake:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/011801ffl.htm
OPEN LETTER TO ALL FEDERALLY LICENSED COLLECTORS OF CURIO OR RELIC FIREARMS
Notice:
The purpose of this letter is to apprise Federally licensed collectors of pertinent regulations of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). A licensed collector is a collector of curios and relics only and is licensed and regulated under the provisions of 27 CFR Part 178. To be considered a curio or relic, a firearm must 1) have been manufactured at least 50 years ago; or 2) be certified as a curio or relic of museum interest by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum that exhibits firearms; or 3) derive a substantial amount of its monetary value from the fact that it is novel, rare, bizarre, or associated with some historical event, period, or figure. Below are some major "Do's" and "Don'ts" for collectors that are based on these provisions:
PROHIBITED
Cannot "engage in the business" of buying and selling curios and relics. The term "engaged in the business" refers to a person or entity that devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. A collector's license only enables the collector to obtain curio or relic firearms interstate.
Cannot acquire firearms other than curios or relics using a collector's license. Licensed collectors have no special privileges with regard to firearms that are not curios or relics.
AUTHORIZED
May acquire and dispose of curios or relics at any location.
May dispose of curios and relics to a licensee or a nonlicensee residing in the same State, who is not otherwise prohibited by the GCA, and to any other Federal firearms licensee in any State.
REQUIRED
Must prepare an acquisition and disposition (A/D) record as prescribed by 27 CFR 178.125(f). The A/D record shall be kept with the collection.
Must enter into the A/D record all curios and relics acquired after receipt of the collector's license.
Must provide a written notification as specified in ATF I 5300.2, Youth Handgun Safety Act Notice, when delivery of a handgun is made to a nonlicensee.
Must prepare ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, whenever the collector sells or otherwise disposes of--at one time or during any five consecutive business days--two or more pistols or revolvers or any combination thereof, to an unlicensed person.
Must report the theft or loss of a firearm within 48 hours of discovery, by telephoning 1-800-800-3855. Also, ATF Form 3310.11, Federal Firearms Theft/Loss Report, will be prepared in accordance with the instructions on the form.
REMINDER
To ensure compliance with recordkeeping requirements, any ATF officer may inspect the inventory and records of a licensed collector once during any 12-month period. At the election of the collector, the inspection may be performed at the ATF office nearest the place where the inventory and records of the collector are maintained.
CORRECTION NOTICE
Please make a correction to ATF P 5300.4 (01-00), Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide. In the format for "Firearms Collectors Acquisition and Disposition Record," at the bottom of page 70, under "Disposition," please delete "if licensee" immediately following "Driver's license No." The correct caption should read as follows: "Driver's license No. or other identification if nonlicensee."
If you have any questions about these requirements, please contact your local ATF office.
John P. Malone
Assistant Director
(Firearms, Explosives and Arson)
Here's a nice curveball for you guys......
What happens if someone buys an SKS, let's say, with a C+R, then he decides
he wants to sporterize it. Does he have to log it out of the book before he
does that, because it's no longer going to be C+R qualified?
-Mike
What happens if someone buys an SKS, let's say, with a C+R, then he decides
he wants to sporterize it. Does he have to log it out of the book before he
does that, because it's no longer going to be C+R qualified?
-Mike
HEY! We agree!
Yes, I'd log it out of your bound book as soon as you change it from an original configuration.Similar threads
