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Dillon XL 650 versus Hornady Lock N Load Auto Progressive comparison
- Thread starter *chris*
- Start date
LED light to shine into the case
I run the following:
#1 dillon sizing die
#2 u-die
#3 expand powder drop
#4 dillon bullet seat
#5 dillon crimp
The dillon sizing die has a generous flare and the u-die doesn't If I run a u-die in station #1 I smash cases. Sizing an undersizing in two steps seems smoother too.
Well, I have read online that the Hornady Lock N Load AP was as good as or almost as good as the Dillon 650 XL. Those reviews are rubbish in my opinion! I have only loaded 200 rounds of 9mm so far but the Dillon has emerged as a much smoother operating machine. Whereas the casefeeder on the LNL AP has a lot of parts to keep track of and requires tweaking to get it to run "just right," the Dillon has case-specific interchangeable parts that are included in their Caliber Conversion Kits and "just works." The priming system, although annoying that it feeds a primer weather the case needs it or not, has much better feel and also "just works." The Spent Primer catch leaves a bit to be desired, but with under $10 worth of hardware store parts, it can be fixed. It is almost like the engineer that designed the press knew he was screwing up and left the clearance for a proper fix.![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
I personally think the Hornady powder measure is smoother operating, but both meter very accurately. I do like the Dillon Fail Safe Rod because when metering large flake powder like 800x and Unique, the Hornady powder measure can stick open. Here are more photos and thoughts.
Moving the Power Drop to station 3 makes a ton of sense, allows you to use a seperate case mouth expander and gives better access to the filled case.
This press is so fast, the Vibraprime keeps my primer tube full!
I am using Hornady dies since that is what I bought for my LNL AP, plus they are really great dies and not that expensive. Problem is since the 650 XL Toolhead is so much smaller in diameter and does not have the quick change bushings the Hornady lock nuts are not easy to use. I removed them and am using the standard nuts that Dillon provides.
I am not putting too much credence into complaints of powder spilling and the need for aftermarket bearings, cutting springs, and other modifications. I think the best solution is to move the powder drop to station 3, and insert the bullet (top orange arrow) on the down stroke before the toolhead indexes (bottom orange arrow.) This strategy will not work if I decide to use my bullet feeder, but I want to see if the press gets smoother with time. Thanks to Supermoto for this tip.
Another annoyance! You can't remove the completed bullet tray with the press in the down position!
Overall I am supremely impressed with the press. I want to do a complete cost breakdown in the coming days. The Dillon comes with a shellplate and a few of the casefeeder parts in the base configuration which will make it operate faster than a stock LNL AP so I feel the start price is almost a wash. The biggest cost issue with the Dillon is the caliber conversions.
Chris
I personally think the Hornady powder measure is smoother operating, but both meter very accurately. I do like the Dillon Fail Safe Rod because when metering large flake powder like 800x and Unique, the Hornady powder measure can stick open. Here are more photos and thoughts.Moving the Power Drop to station 3 makes a ton of sense, allows you to use a seperate case mouth expander and gives better access to the filled case.
This press is so fast, the Vibraprime keeps my primer tube full!
I am using Hornady dies since that is what I bought for my LNL AP, plus they are really great dies and not that expensive. Problem is since the 650 XL Toolhead is so much smaller in diameter and does not have the quick change bushings the Hornady lock nuts are not easy to use. I removed them and am using the standard nuts that Dillon provides.
I am not putting too much credence into complaints of powder spilling and the need for aftermarket bearings, cutting springs, and other modifications. I think the best solution is to move the powder drop to station 3, and insert the bullet (top orange arrow) on the down stroke before the toolhead indexes (bottom orange arrow.) This strategy will not work if I decide to use my bullet feeder, but I want to see if the press gets smoother with time. Thanks to Supermoto for this tip.
Another annoyance! You can't remove the completed bullet tray with the press in the down position!
Overall I am supremely impressed with the press. I want to do a complete cost breakdown in the coming days. The Dillon comes with a shellplate and a few of the casefeeder parts in the base configuration which will make it operate faster than a stock LNL AP so I feel the start price is almost a wash. The biggest cost issue with the Dillon is the caliber conversions.
Chris
the ammo tray comes off the other way too![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
This^
And on my 650 the indexing did get smoother but until it did I just touched the next case while it was indexing with my finger as my hand was there with a bullet waiting to be put in the top of the case anyway.
Today I purchased the Dillon Casefeeder to compare to the Hornady Casefeeder. The competition is close, the top end of the Hornady feeder is better thought out then the Dillon but the Dillon lower end case feeder is far superior than the Hornady. I am going to try reloading a few more rounds, but was able to reload a quick 100 before I wrote this review, but I may marry the Hornady upper with the Dillon lower on the 650. First photos show the feeder bowl, Hornady and Dillon must license the same design:
Hornday:
Dillon:
In this case, the Dillon feeder is cheaper than the Hornady at $170 vs $280 but the Dillon 650 loader package comes with the lower case feeder parts so you are getting less parts in the Dillon kit since you have half the feeder already if you own the press.
Back to my assertion that both of these are built by the same company, the Hornady case feeder plates are identical to the Dillon ones and work perfectly. I already have all the Hornady case feeder plates, so here I am using the Hornady small pistol plate in the Dillon Case Feeder.
The Dillon feed motor has 2 speeds and is a lot quieter than the Hornady motor.
Here you can see that the Hornady is a cleaner and better thought out design. The microswitch lever is much shorter which never jams but jams with the Dillon feeder. Hornady also provides two case tubes, one for 357 mag and smaller in diameter and one for .40 and larger cases. It is a very slick design that works well.
The Dillon feeder is not the most visually appealing with the clear plastic showing all the internals. This photo is showing a common failure mode where two 9mm cases have jammed the microswitch. Cases have also gotten stuck in the plate/hopper interface, but that is a common failure with the Hornady as well. See how long the microswitch lever is, this is a poor design which allows the narrow cases to be caught. The feed motor is two speed which is cool, but of unknown use in my opinion as these feeders work pretty quickly. It is interesting to note that the switch is wired wrong and "high" is actually low feed speed. I mentioned that the motor is super quiet which has one disadvantage, you can't hear it struggle which it is jammed, which is a great audible cue on the louder Hornady.
The magic with the Dillon is the lower end of the case feeder. The two green colored pieces of plastic are caliber-specific as well as an aluminum chute that I do not show in the following photo. I have loaded around 400 rounds already without a single misfed case!
The Hornady design is a little sloppier, really like the rest of the press. At the top of the screen is the case feed that comes in sub .357 and over .357 case sizes. The case drops on the metal shell plate holder below and the v-block pushes the case into the shellplate. Cases tend to bounce and case feeding is no where near 100% on the Hornady.
In summary, both case feeders speed you up to slow you down. The Dillon upper feeder leaves a little to be desired and the Hornady lower feeder leaves a little to be desired. I am going to see after some use if the Dillon case feeder will settle in.
Chris
Hornday:
Dillon:
In this case, the Dillon feeder is cheaper than the Hornady at $170 vs $280 but the Dillon 650 loader package comes with the lower case feeder parts so you are getting less parts in the Dillon kit since you have half the feeder already if you own the press.
Back to my assertion that both of these are built by the same company, the Hornady case feeder plates are identical to the Dillon ones and work perfectly. I already have all the Hornady case feeder plates, so here I am using the Hornady small pistol plate in the Dillon Case Feeder.
The Dillon feed motor has 2 speeds and is a lot quieter than the Hornady motor.
Here you can see that the Hornady is a cleaner and better thought out design. The microswitch lever is much shorter which never jams but jams with the Dillon feeder. Hornady also provides two case tubes, one for 357 mag and smaller in diameter and one for .40 and larger cases. It is a very slick design that works well.
The Dillon feeder is not the most visually appealing with the clear plastic showing all the internals. This photo is showing a common failure mode where two 9mm cases have jammed the microswitch. Cases have also gotten stuck in the plate/hopper interface, but that is a common failure with the Hornady as well. See how long the microswitch lever is, this is a poor design which allows the narrow cases to be caught. The feed motor is two speed which is cool, but of unknown use in my opinion as these feeders work pretty quickly. It is interesting to note that the switch is wired wrong and "high" is actually low feed speed. I mentioned that the motor is super quiet which has one disadvantage, you can't hear it struggle which it is jammed, which is a great audible cue on the louder Hornady.
The magic with the Dillon is the lower end of the case feeder. The two green colored pieces of plastic are caliber-specific as well as an aluminum chute that I do not show in the following photo. I have loaded around 400 rounds already without a single misfed case!
The Hornady design is a little sloppier, really like the rest of the press. At the top of the screen is the case feed that comes in sub .357 and over .357 case sizes. The case drops on the metal shell plate holder below and the v-block pushes the case into the shellplate. Cases tend to bounce and case feeding is no where near 100% on the Hornady.
In summary, both case feeders speed you up to slow you down. The Dillon upper feeder leaves a little to be desired and the Hornady lower feeder leaves a little to be desired. I am going to see after some use if the Dillon case feeder will settle in.
Chris
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One of the aspects of the Dillon that seems to be quite a bit better than the Hornady is the priming system, lets take a look at the priming ram. On the left is the Hornady large pistol primer ram, in the middle is the Dillon large pistol primer ram, and on the right is the primer deliver disk that rotates one position with every cycle of the system. The primer ram is obviously more precise and primer wheel appears to be ground and hardened for precision. All of these parts are more robust on the Dillon for which I think leads to the smoother priming action.
One of the complaints of the Hornady is the dreaded primer ram divot that causes excessive wear on the primer ram and makes it harder to seat primers. I have probably loaded around 20k rounds on this Lock n Load and while there is a divot, it doesn't appear that bad yet. This part of the casting is rough yet flat, it could really benefit from a machined spot and a steel insert to provide a flatter and harder surface.
Compare this to the Dillon that has a user-replaceable seat.
In the primer handling and seating department, the Dillon is the clear winner with the exception that it feeds primers weather they are needed or not, and extras are dumped down the kludgy "ski slope." Dillion really should redesign this and figure out how to allow the user to shut off the primer feed.
Chris
One of the complaints of the Hornady is the dreaded primer ram divot that causes excessive wear on the primer ram and makes it harder to seat primers. I have probably loaded around 20k rounds on this Lock n Load and while there is a divot, it doesn't appear that bad yet. This part of the casting is rough yet flat, it could really benefit from a machined spot and a steel insert to provide a flatter and harder surface.
Compare this to the Dillon that has a user-replaceable seat.
In the primer handling and seating department, the Dillon is the clear winner with the exception that it feeds primers weather they are needed or not, and extras are dumped down the kludgy "ski slope." Dillion really should redesign this and figure out how to allow the user to shut off the primer feed.
Chris
Rick1987
NES Member
this guy has some good reloading videos
RELOADING TIPS FOR DILLON PRESSES - YouTube
DILLON XL 650 CALIBER CHANGE .223 to 357 MAGNUM - YouTube
RELOADING TIPS FOR DILLON PRESSES - YouTube
DILLON XL 650 CALIBER CHANGE .223 to 357 MAGNUM - YouTube
I'm bumping this thread.
I loaded well over 100K (maybe over 200K) rounds on my L-N-L, which I finally got rid of in favor of a Dillon 650.
It got to the point with the L-N-L where I had to replace parts almost every reloading session, and Hornady stopped sending them for free. The press was just plain worn out. When I called Hornady and asked if they had a rebuild deal similar to Dillon's, they told me to buy a new press.
So I did. I got a Dillon XL650.
When I got the machine, I set it up for .44 Magnum using my Hornady dies, I dumped a bunch of cases in the case feeder, loaded up the powder measure with Lil' Gun, put 100 primers in the primer magazine, and proceeded to pull the handle 100 times without interruption until I ran out of primers.
During those 100 rounds, I did not once have to pick a case up off the floor, clear a jam at the top of the casefeed tube, nudge a case into the shellplate, fiddle with the priming mechanism, or manually eject a finished round. In all the time I loaded on my L-N-L, I don't think I ever went 20 rounds in a row without having to perform one of those extra actions.
When I got done with the 1st hundred rounds of .44 Magnum, I set up another toolhead for 9mm, loaded up 2 primer fill tubes with primers, and ran 200 rounds of 9mm without a failure-induced stoppage.
When I was done, I changed back to .44 Magnum in under 5 minutes (including the priming system) and made an additional 250 rounds of .44 Magnum without any stoppages.
The Dillon XL650 runs way better than the L-N-L, and is worth every penny. I wish I'd changed years ago.
I loaded well over 100K (maybe over 200K) rounds on my L-N-L, which I finally got rid of in favor of a Dillon 650.
It got to the point with the L-N-L where I had to replace parts almost every reloading session, and Hornady stopped sending them for free. The press was just plain worn out. When I called Hornady and asked if they had a rebuild deal similar to Dillon's, they told me to buy a new press.
So I did. I got a Dillon XL650.
When I got the machine, I set it up for .44 Magnum using my Hornady dies, I dumped a bunch of cases in the case feeder, loaded up the powder measure with Lil' Gun, put 100 primers in the primer magazine, and proceeded to pull the handle 100 times without interruption until I ran out of primers.
During those 100 rounds, I did not once have to pick a case up off the floor, clear a jam at the top of the casefeed tube, nudge a case into the shellplate, fiddle with the priming mechanism, or manually eject a finished round. In all the time I loaded on my L-N-L, I don't think I ever went 20 rounds in a row without having to perform one of those extra actions.
When I got done with the 1st hundred rounds of .44 Magnum, I set up another toolhead for 9mm, loaded up 2 primer fill tubes with primers, and ran 200 rounds of 9mm without a failure-induced stoppage.
When I was done, I changed back to .44 Magnum in under 5 minutes (including the priming system) and made an additional 250 rounds of .44 Magnum without any stoppages.
The Dillon XL650 runs way better than the L-N-L, and is worth every penny. I wish I'd changed years ago.
Every time I get into a discussion about presses and the 650/LNL topic comes up I get scolded for drinking blue kool aid. That's not the case. I've owned other presses before I went blue. Ill say it again the lock n load is a decent press..If you like to tinker and fix stuff you will love this thing. If you like to bang out 1000 rounds in a sitting without any tinkering buy a 650.
grizquad
NES Member
Chris, This was a great thread, and I have been researching LNL and Blue 650 and was about to pull the trigger on Blue and your great pros and cons and everyone else's input on fixes made my mind up.....BLUE 650. Pictures great too. Thanks for your hard work.
One question from anybody, I have checked several places and Brian Enos's web site and have found everyone sells at MSRP, is there anywhere that gives a better price break on a complete setup?
One question from anybody, I have checked several places and Brian Enos's web site and have found everyone sells at MSRP, is there anywhere that gives a better price break on a complete setup?
buy a used one, that's about the only way I've seen.
despite getting plunked in the head a few times with 9mm brass the other night I'm sticking with the red press for a while longer. my guess is that eventually it'll piss me off enough that I'll just order a six fiddy and be done with it.
Fixxah
NES Member
If I ever wear out my LnL I would get a 650.
When I bought my press I was set on a 650 but the dealer I went with told me I had to order directly from dillon. He called me later the next day to say he had the LnL complete with casefeeder for around $700 so I bought it.
It has had little issues which I've ironed out over the years and their replacement of worn or broken pieces free and asap is fine for my use. I have less than 15k loaded rounds but haven't been to the range very often with the little one to care for but I clean off the cobwebs and it runs like a champ.
I don't mind tinkering on occasion and helping out others with issues I might've had and will figure out any new ones I haven't had yet.
-Proud to be dad every day, a licensed plumber most days, and wish I was a shoemaker on others.
When I bought my press I was set on a 650 but the dealer I went with told me I had to order directly from dillon. He called me later the next day to say he had the LnL complete with casefeeder for around $700 so I bought it.
It has had little issues which I've ironed out over the years and their replacement of worn or broken pieces free and asap is fine for my use. I have less than 15k loaded rounds but haven't been to the range very often with the little one to care for but I clean off the cobwebs and it runs like a champ.
I don't mind tinkering on occasion and helping out others with issues I might've had and will figure out any new ones I haven't had yet.
-Proud to be dad every day, a licensed plumber most days, and wish I was a shoemaker on others.
Thanks. Interestingly enough the cheapest place to buy anything Dillon is Shooters Outpost in Hookset NH. Call ahead, but they usually have presses, case feeders, caliber conversion kits and some dies. As far as caliber conversions I have settled on the following:
Toolhead $28
Toolhead stand $21
Powder die $11.35
It is $60 versus $108 for the same kit with a powder drop. Since I don't leave powder in the drop when I am not loading ammo, swapping over the powder die is not a big deal.
No regrets, this machine makes reloading quite a bit more enjoyable.
Chris
38ExtraSpecial
NES Member
could you just run different powder bars?
when i change over from my rifle powder bar to my pistol bar it always seems to stay right where i left it.
if you only had 5 or 6 loads that you stuck with for competition might be better to spend $29 a bar instead of the whole powder measure
when i change over from my rifle powder bar to my pistol bar it always seems to stay right where i left it.
if you only had 5 or 6 loads that you stuck with for competition might be better to spend $29 a bar instead of the whole powder measure
38ExtraSpecial
NES Member
Same goes for me. I always double and triple check. I notice it does save time if I'm switching from pistol to 223 and my rifle bar was last set for 23 grains of h335 vs being set for 308 with 42 grains of varget and having to really make a serious adjustment I can just tweak a little. I guess the same goes when switching pistol powder from something like 12 grains of 2400 over to 2.5 grains of clays.
I don't bother because I load so many variations and mostly pistol, not to mention it seems finding the same powder each time I go to a shop is pretty hard anyway.
Might work out for your competition guys. Maybe drill and tap the side of the bar for a set screw to lock down the powder setting?
I don't bother because I load so many variations and mostly pistol, not to mention it seems finding the same powder each time I go to a shop is pretty hard anyway.
Might work out for your competition guys. Maybe drill and tap the side of the bar for a set screw to lock down the powder setting?
Anybody try one of these yet?
http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1231
Looks like you might be able to jot down some numbers and dial them back in pretty quickly when switching loads.
http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1231
Looks like you might be able to jot down some numbers and dial them back in pretty quickly when switching loads.
I don't want do spend any time adjusting powder measures. Getting seperate powder bars is a good idea. But I rather just swap the entire tool head and get to loading
Switching a powder bar only takes seconds, and the money saved from not buying another powder measure can be used for more components. On the other hand, it is your money, you spend it how you want to!
meh, rather have a full powder measure and leave the powder in there and just replace 2 pins
Just ordered my Dillon 650 online through a great action shooter: Free shipping, great customer service, and I found the site easier to navigate than Dillon's.
Plus, I don't have to drive out into the woods and waste 10 gallons of gas getting there and back.
I'm putting up the walls for the new reloading room this weekend, press will be here next week, and I should be live next weekend.
edit: Pics are great Chris, thanks.
Plus, I don't have to drive out into the woods and waste 10 gallons of gas getting there and back.
I'm putting up the walls for the new reloading room this weekend, press will be here next week, and I should be live next weekend.
edit: Pics are great Chris, thanks.
I've got one. I double-check when changing loads but so far it's always been spot-on. I always adjust the same way to keep any backlash out of the equation.
Where I've found it most valuable is working up a load. I measure a couple of points and print out a cheat sheet from Excel. That let's me quickly throw ten at 3.0, ten at 3.1, etc.
