corrosive ammo

[headednorth]

I know the basics regarding corrosive ammo.

My question is how guys out in the field back in the day dealt with it. Reading online, a lot of people seem to avoid it like the plague. All that running home to soak your rifle in Windex before it rots away. If you go back far enough, there was no talk of "corrosive ammo" because all ammo was corrosive. Guns that were designed and built to use corrosive ammo are still in use today. What did a guy who was sitting in a foxhole for weeks at a time (presumably with no access to Windex (or ammonia?)) do?

Is the whole issue a bit overblown? Is it just an issue for people who like to throw the rifle back in the safe when they get it home and just do a quick cleaning every 4-5 range trips?

 

[Narrowback]

In a word. "Urine" Russians had a hell of a time with the female snipers.

 

[headednorth]

In a word. "Urine" Russians had a hell of a time with the female snipers.

No joke? I'd never heard that.

 

[FreeWillie]

It's an issue if left to fester for a period of time. It will cause premature rusting and deterioration of the finish (pitting). I shoot corrosive ammo on occasion and all I do is take the water hose and flush the barrel and receiver. Then use high pressure air to blow the water off, WD-40 everything, wipe it down and then use a good quality gun oil. I've never had a problem with corrosion using that technique.

 

[headednorth]

It's an issue if left to fester for a period of time. It will cause premature rusting and deterioration of the finish (pitting). I shoot corrosive ammo on occasion and all I do is take the water hose and flush the barrel and receiver. Then use high pressure air to blow the water off, WD-40 everything, wipe it down and then use a good quality gun oil. I've never had a problem with corrosion using that technique.

Funny, I saw a guy on youtube do that out in his yard with an ak74 with polymer furniture. I assumed it was an "its an AK, f*ck it" kind of thing. Not sure if I'd do that with my Garand but maybe Im babying it too much?

 

[Narrowback]

Surprised you never heard of using urine to break down the corrosive salts in a rifle. I have heard it here on NES and other sites that it was common to use urine to help break down the salts before oiling up the barrel. I for one have never given my M44 a golden shower. I prefer to use modern cleaning methods. This makes me think that if the Russians used urine to clean their rifles. What is Cosmoline made from? That may be for another thread.

 

[Picton]

All you need to do is flush the salts, and water works fine for that (as does urine). No windex is needed, either then or now; windex is mostly water, and that's what does the work. The Brits issued a special funnel for use with SMLEs just for pouring a shot of water down the bore.

If I'm shooting corrosive, I just bring a thermos of hot water and pour it down the bore after I'm done shooting. It evaporates right away, and I follow with a normal cleaning. As others have mentioned, it's only a problem if you let the salts sit for days, not hours.

 

[NavelOfficer]

All the above are adequate to reduce the risk of corroding the works. A friend of mine shot his MAS with corrosivlely-primed ammo and then neglected to clean it. It was a mess the next time it came out of his safe. The salts in the primer residue attract moisture and make for a toxic mix on steel. You needn't become wierd over corrosive ammo, but just use a few simple steps to treat after shooting it. Cheers.

 

[jpm]

All you need to do is flush the salts, and water works fine for that (as does urine). No windex is needed, either then or now; windex is mostly water, and that's what does the work. The Brits issued a special funnel for use with SMLEs just for pouring a shot of water down the bore.

If I'm shooting corrosive, I just bring a thermos of hot water and pour it down the bore after I'm done shooting. It evaporates right away, and I follow with a normal cleaning. As others have mentioned, it's only a problem if you let the salts sit for days, not hours.

This^^ Windex and ammonia do NOTHING to neutralize corrosive primer residue. Its a salt and salts cannot be neutralized. They can only be dissolved and flushed away which is what warm soapy water does quite nicely. A good surfactant like Mpro7 cleaner (not cleaner lub, straight cleaner) will do this too.

a guy I know who shoots black powder will bring some water with him to rinse out the bore before he leaves the range. Then he gives it a good cleaning when he gets home. When I shoot corrosive, I'll squirt some WD40 down the bore and let it run all the way down and out the muzzle to just give me an extra day before I need to clean it out good.

 

[Len-2A Training]

USGI bore cleaner was made in the WWII era to address the corrosive issue. I bought some small tins of it back in the 1970s. Pretty pungent stuff, no idea what it contains. I know that I still have some of the stuff downstairs but don't use it any more.

 

[CaseHardened]

Ok, Black Powder is corrosive. And the Primer for it is as well. Even for Flintlocks.

But I thought later propellants were not corrosive, just the Primer Caps ?

And now, unless old MIL-SURP, hardly anything is corrosive.

Please advise.

 

[Picton]

Ok, Black Powder is corrosive. And the Primer for it is as well. Even for Flintlocks.

But I thought later propellants were not corrosive, just the Primer Caps ?

And now, unless old MIL-SURP, hardly anything is corrosive.

Please advise.

Many of us shoot old milsurp ammo in our old milsurp rifles.

 

[CaseHardened]

Many of us shoot old milsurp ammo in our old milsurp rifles.

Yes, but even then the Propellant is not corrosive, just the Primer.

For the small amount of material the Primer represents, it must be nasty.

 

[Picton]

Yes, but even then the Propellant is not corrosive, just the Primer.

For the small amount of material the Primer represents, it must be nasty.

Dude, I don't think that deeply about it. The original users of my milsurp rifles were told to flush out with hot water, so I figure I should flush out with hot water.

Everything I've read about the subject agrees with me.

 

[headednorth]

Some interesting replies, thanks.

 

[jpm]

Yes, but even then the Propellant is not corrosive, just the Primer.

For the small amount of material the Primer represents, it must be nasty.

its just that the residue contains salts which attract and hold moisture which causes rust. So if you fired one or two rounds, probably not a big deal. Fire 100 and there's a lot of salts mixed in the debris in your bore. More salt = more moisture which = quicker rust.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

I've made the mistake to forget to clean one of my Mosins before. Shit gets nasty quick.

My SKS I don't clean and I don't think any of my x39 is corrosive.

 

[mac1911]

its just that the residue contains salts which attract and hold moisture which causes rust. So if you fired one or two rounds, probably not a big deal. Fire 100 and there's a lot of salts mixed in the debris in your bore. More salt = more moisture which = quicker rust.

The corrosive chemicals in the ammunition where generally potassium chloride or sodium chloride.
Which love to react with hydrogen and oxygen and the moisture in the air to form a nice acid which will eventually rot your rifle. So cleaning with anything that will have a acid neutralizing effect will help.
Growing up the "old guys" at the club would just use warm soapy water as lots of those guys where shooting corrosive 30-06 which was abundant and cheap 30 years ago.
I have grown to the point where I just don't shoot corrosive anymore .
I either reload or reload with cast bullets and shoot on the cheAp.

 

[MisterHappy]

My dad was an Armorer in WWII.

It was dealt with, by frequent and proper cleaning of the arms.

One day, an officer came to him, with his .45's barrel all rusted to sh!t. My dad refused to replace the part, as he had none in inventory, and had the paperwork to prove it.

He had no respect for someone that would let that happen to his sidearm.

Oh, he also had several barrels still in the arsenal packing, but "off the books".

 

[jpm]

The corrosive chemicals in the ammunition where generally potassium chloride or sodium chloride.
Which love to react with hydrogen and oxygen and the moisture in the air to form a nice acid which will eventually rot your rifle. So cleaning with anything that will have a acid neutralizing effect will help.

This is not accurate. Acid does not form by adding hydrogen or oxygen to salts, salts are produced when an acid is neutralized actually. For instance you take hydrochloric acid and neutralize it with sodium hydroxide, what you get is sodium chloride and water. Chemically HCl + NaOH -> NaCL + HOH (aka H20). So that solution has plenty of hydrogens and oxygens in it but its never going to turn back into an acid.

What happens with corrosion is the salts are hygrophobic, or water attracting. The very fine particles of salt are embedded in the debris in your barrel after shooting and attracts water to it. Since that debris is sitting on metal, it becomes wet debris sitting on metal which creates rust. Since the salt particles are so small, they do a nice job covering all of your metal surfaces which have had any protective oil burned off of them from all the hot gasses and flames produced by the cartridge, and it doesn't take long for the rust to start doing its thing.

There is no neutralizing material that will kill a salt, it has to be dissolved and flushed away. Warm soapy water does that well since the soap is a surfactant and gets underneath dirt and debris and the warm water dissolves salts nicely.

Windex is alleged to have copper dissolving properties because of the ammonia, but really the concentration of ammonia in windex is miniscule and its not in there long enough to dissolve the copper. The water which is the majority of windex is really doing the work by dissolving and flushing the salt out.

 

[mac1911]

This is not accurate. Acid does not form by adding hydrogen or oxygen to salts, salts are produced when an acid is neutralized actually. For instance you take hydrochloric acid and neutralize it with sodium hydroxide, what you get is sodium chloride and water. Chemically HCl + NaOH -> NaCL + HOH (aka H20). So that solution has plenty of hydrogens and oxygens in it but its never going to turn back into an acid.

What happens with corrosion is the salts are hygrophobic, or water attracting. The very fine particles of salt are embedded in the debris in your barrel after shooting and attracts water to it. Since that debris is sitting on metal, it becomes wet debris sitting on metal which creates rust. Since the salt particles are so small, they do a nice job covering all of your metal surfaces which have had any protective oil burned off of them from all the hot gasses and flames produced by the cartridge, and it doesn't take long for the rust to start doing its thing.

There is no neutralizing material that will kill a salt, it has to be dissolved and flushed away. Warm soapy water does that well since the soap is a surfactant and gets underneath dirt and debris and the warm water dissolves salts nicely.

Windex is alleged to have copper dissolving properties because of the ammonia, but really the concentration of ammonia in windex is miniscule and its not in there long enough to dissolve the copper. The water which is the majority of windex is really doing the work by dissolving and flushing the salt out.

I always thought salts where neutral until contact or absorption with water ? Any how only going on loose memories.
I know it's not the same but if all you do is wash your battery off with water you will spread the acid and it's corrosion effects around...
We can all agree warm soapy water works well.
I remember clearly the end of black powder/primitive season growing up. My dad would remove the stock from his 50 cal and into the shower....that stunk up the place!

 

[mclina]

From watching Enemy at the Gates, it looks like most guys solved the problem by not living long enough to shoot more than 5 rounds.

 

[jpm]

I always thought salts where neutral until contact or absorption with water ? Any how only going on loose memories.
I know it's not the same but if all you do is wash your battery off with water you will spread the acid and it's corrosion effects around...

that stuff on the battery is corrosion from leaking acid/fumes which probably happen during the electrolytic process of charging the battery from the alternator. Its not a neutralized salt.There's acid and lead oxide and god knows what else in that muck. The baking soda solution your supposed to use to clean that off neutralizes the acid that has collected on top of the battery (and create a salt in the process)

I think black powder residue may get acidic with moisture because of the sulfur component in it, but I'd have to look into it further. Its a totally different animal than the primer residue.

 

[daekken]

Straight water. At the car shoot in April I only shot corrosive in my Mosin. I just dumped water all over it and it's fine. My Mosin came with the standard cleaning kit:

The bottle on the left has two halves: one for water, and one for oil. The water dissolves the salt primer, and the oil lubricates. Urine would work due to its water content, although I've never done it. Windex would work since it's mostly water, but water would just be fine. Warm water preferably, but enough cold water will do the trick.

 

[dhuze]

I've made the mistake to forget to clean one of my Mosins before. Shit gets nasty quick.

My SKS I don't clean and I don't think any of my x39 is corrosive.

I have some 7.62X39 ammo that will start rusting your barrel before you get done packing it up for the ride home.

I was shooting it at our clubs open house. I knew it was corrosive, but figured I'd clean it in the morning before I went back the second day. Bad idea. Thankfully the barrel is chrome lined because everything that wasn't had rust all over it. I managed to clean up most of it, but the muzzle brake still shows signs where there is rust. I haven't shot that ammo since and that was 3 years ago. Still have 300 or 500 rounds, whatever comes in the pack.

 

[DW357]

I have some 7.62X39 ammo that will start rusting your barrel before you get done packing it up for the ride home.

I was shooting it at our clubs open house. I knew it was corrosive, but figured I'd clean it in the morning before I went back the second day. Bad idea. Thankfully the barrel is chrome lined because everything that wasn't had rust all over it. I managed to clean up most of it, but the muzzle brake still shows signs where there is rust. I haven't shot that ammo since and that was 3 years ago. Still have 300 or 500 rounds, whatever comes in the pack.

And be careful with brown bear x39 ammo. I had rust issues on the piston in my AK and SKS from using this ammo. Says non-corrosive but I think otherwise...

 

[jpm]

And be careful with brown bear x39 ammo. I had rust issues on the piston in my AK and SKS from using this ammo. Says non-corrosive but I think otherwise...

oh really?? That's interesting!

- - - Updated - - -

I have some 7.62X39 ammo that will start rusting your barrel before you get done packing it up for the ride home. .

Romanian 8mm steel cased is like that too.

 

[DW357]

oh really?? That's interesting!

Yeah I finally sold all the brown bear I had and stuck with golden tiger. Luckily both the AK and SKS are chromed lined (both Norinco's).

 

[45collector]

And be careful with brown bear x39 ammo. I had rust issues on the piston in my AK and SKS from using this ammo. Says non-corrosive but I think otherwise...

Truth. My SKS is a Russian refurb with that tough-as-hell black finish and I've never had problems with that, but I caught early stages of rust on my MAK90 after only ONE DAY sitting in my safe after shooting Brown Bear through it. Thankfully it didn't have the chance to bite in and a good amount of swabbing and rubbing with hot soapy water, then CLP did the trick. I still have a full case of Brown Bear and I will shoot it some day, but it will get treated like old school corrosive stuff, that is certain.

 

[knoxy]

And be careful with brown bear x39 ammo. I had rust issues on the piston in my AK and SKS from using this ammo. Says non-corrosive but I think otherwise...

Yeah I finally sold all the brown bear I had and stuck with golden tiger. Luckily both the AK and SKS are chromed lined (both Norinco's).

Yup. Noticed the same thing with Brown Bear. Put my rifles away for a day or two and came back to find rust forming around the bolt face and in mag well.

I stocked up on Golden Tiger as well. Never had an issue with that stuff.


For my m44, I just pour water down the bore, wipe out the mag well and innards with a wet rag. and break down the bolt to give it a rinse as well. Then some wd40, then finish with some CLP. Never had an issue with rust so far.