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CA - Man Shoots Drunken Assailant At Restaurant
- Thread starter Kevlar
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Shocking that this is even in question...
Why is that shocking? Unless my sarcasm detector is broken and you're suggesting that anyone who fires a gun in CA gets arrested.
There isn't much in the article that would make it clear that deadly force was required. There probably was and I'd be more apt to side with the guy trying to help than 2 drunks who thought it was a good idea to beat on a guy in a public place but I'm not shocked that they're still investigating.
In God We Trust
NES Member
I have noticed a trend in opinions that an attacker needs to have a weapon of some sort before you can shoot them. This opinion is pervasive among police I know also. I can't quote case law like GSG and some of you other guys, but in my opinion, why should you have to "duke it out" with some @hole if you are armed?
Most of the guys I know have never been in a fist fight since grade school. Why should you have to trust that this stranger punching you in the face on the street only wants to beat you up and that your life is not in danger? How many cases have there been locally of people being beaten to death by unarmed assailants? Even if the guy is a little smaller than you, everyone seems to be into that MMA stuff nowadays. Look at Royce Gracie for instance. If you didn't know who he was, would you be intimidated by him?
I hate to say it, but while I always walk away from trouble and try to avoid places where "shit happens", I'm not getting put in a coma by some doosh when I have the means to defend myself. I know that nobody here was implying that the shooter was wrong, this is a just a general rant.
Most of the guys I know have never been in a fist fight since grade school. Why should you have to trust that this stranger punching you in the face on the street only wants to beat you up and that your life is not in danger? How many cases have there been locally of people being beaten to death by unarmed assailants? Even if the guy is a little smaller than you, everyone seems to be into that MMA stuff nowadays. Look at Royce Gracie for instance. If you didn't know who he was, would you be intimidated by him?
I hate to say it, but while I always walk away from trouble and try to avoid places where "shit happens", I'm not getting put in a coma by some doosh when I have the means to defend myself. I know that nobody here was implying that the shooter was wrong, this is a just a general rant.
I tend to agree to some degree. The thing that cinches it for me is the reasonable fear on the part of the gun owner that his/her attacker has the ability and opportunity to threaten their life. A 270lb 6'7" linebacker rushing at me enraged would do it for me even if he was unarmed and wearing a bunny suit.
My point was just that without some key details, I'm not ready to curse the PD for investigating.
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It's the wording that bothers me. The professional response is to say the investigation continues, but here the focus is on charges, not determining further truth about what happened.
Gotcha! Ageed.
Of course police are trained for the opposite. Guy puts up his fists ... pepperspray or taze them. Guy actually trys to hit you ... hit him with your monadnock. Guys pulls a knife or gun ... shoot them.
Naturally these concepts don't apply to the average citizen. Remember the use of force concept only applies if you have a badge. Hopefully my sarcasm isn't lost on anyone
In God We Trust
NES Member
Of course police are trained for the opposite. Guy puts up his fists ... pepperspray or taze them. Guy actually trys to hit you ... hit him with your monadnock. Guys pulls a knife or gun ... shoot them.
Naturally these concepts don't apply to the average citizen. Remember the use of force concept only applies if you have a badge. Hopefully my sarcasm isn't lost on anyone
They also train police in "officer / subject factors" which state that you have discretion depending on the size of the subject, any prior knowledge of the subject like if he has any martial arts training, etc. If a 150 lb. cop gets attacked by an unarmed 250 pound guy, he can draw and shoot without going through the other steps in use of force. As long as a reasonable and prudent person would be in fear for their life, it will fly.
Excellent point. I was just trying to be a little humorous about the disconnect that a lot (not all) in law enforcement have in these scenarios.
Most of these civilian shootings would probably be much different if the shooter could walk the officer through his escalation (or de-escalation) in the use of force. That's one of the reasons i'm amazed that most CCW'ers don't carry pepperspray ... it's a good way to show in a use of force incident that you attempted to use force in an appropriate way as they (the police) would in a similar situation.
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In God We Trust
NES Member
Absolutely. I always carry a can with me for this reason.
In God We Trust
NES Member
Me too. Of course the use of force continuum gets beaten into my head at least twice a year![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
I agree 100%.
I've never had a physical confrontation in my life. I'm a good size at 6'2 240, but it really doesn't mean jack. At 27, I'm not about to start putting up the dukes now.
I MMOB and carry knife, spray, and pistol(s). Someone wants to start? I'm also packing 2 legs and a brain to decide that it's not worth ANY of it.
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I agree, as well.
Being 5'5", 160#, any angry dude above 6' is probably going to rag doll me if he gets his hands on me.
Sure, I've been in several fistfights. I've been lucky not to "lose", but you always come away with some sort of damage. I owe my survival to knowing when to just plain run. There are no points granted for getting the S kicked out of you.
These days, I carry daily.
Unfortunately, this is MA. I'm still better off trying to run than shoot.
But when that 6'6" jamoke comes looking to kick my ass, and I'm cornered, I'm going to take my chances with the legal system.
My guess is that the guy didn't have a CCW permit or violated CA's storage laws. He allegedly retrieved the gun from a bag. I'm not bemoaning a gun in a bag, but the Sacramento homicide detectives may.
Well since you lit up the Batsignal
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
:http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/
Do some reading on that guy's case where he shot a much larger unarmed man and got himself some prison time for it. I believe that in a true case of disparity of force it's acceptable. The issue is that I've read countless threads on gun forums where people say how they'd shoot if someone cocked their arm, yelled at their wife or threw a shoe at the window of their taxi cab.
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
IMO there's real danger in telling this to people who have no training, no experience with violence, and a carry gun purchased as the result of a mid life crisis or something.That's sort of simplifying things. There's factors that the officer needs to be able to specifically articulate, such as fighting to the point of exhaustion before getting to lethal force, multiple attackers, statements made by and body language of the attacker(s), situational factors/weapons of opportunity, and other similar things based on the totality of the circumstances. Even then these cases are highly scrutinized and often have career ending or damaging affects on the cop, even if it was 100% justified.
While his trial was playing out in the news, I read the entire transcripts of Harold Fish's 2-3 interviews with detectives where he did exactly this, including one discussion at the scene of the shooting a week or two later. He totally screwed himself doing so, partially (IMO anyway) because of the way that the mind naturally processes extremely stressful situations.
I used to include it in my carry setup. In my experience it's a great way to clear a room or soften up a determined fighter a little bit, but if they want to put their hands on you it's going to happen, OC or not. I don't like that it requires so much more attention than a gun or knife.
In God We Trust
NES Member
There was no reason to hurt my son, all he was doing was trying to beat you up!
Right, because no one's ever been killed or suffered grievous injury at the hands of a large, weaponless man. Lady, your son was a bully and a moron who got called on it. Just shut up and be glad the guy wasn't a better shot.
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