Boston Lockdown, Refused to Let Police in a Home?

[ThePreBanMan]

I wonder how it would have played out if a Watertown resident, with an LTC issued by that department refused to comply?

Given that it's a notorious "red" community WRT to issuing licenses, there's a good chance that the CLEO (Ed Deveau), would have used his discretion to revoke or deny a LTC upon renewal.

See Godfrey v. Chief of Police of Wellesley

http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bardwell/godfrey_v_chief.txt

The only relief for Mass residents in a situation like that is to get out of the Mass court system and into the Federal system. I'm not a lawyer - but I think that would require challenging that the issuance at the discretion of the chief of police is itself unconstitutional.

 

[Madball13]

I had a lengthy discussion with an officer that was on one of the teams that went door to door. His team searched over 100 hundred houses and did not have one refusal to search. I asked him what were his orders if someone refused and he basically they were ordered to not forcefully enter a house. If they assumed there was a problem then they would surround the house and call it in. What i found shocking is that not one person refused a search.

 

[not new guy]

I had a lengthy discussion with an officer that was on one of the teams that went door to door. His team searched over 100 hundred houses and did not have one refusal to search. I asked him what were his orders if someone refused and he basically they were ordered to not forcefully enter a house. If they assumed there was a problem then they would surround the house and call it in. What i found shocking is that not one person refused a search.

It's easy for people to say they'd refuse a search without a rifle pointed in their face and a cop geared up like a soldier barking at them to get out of the way.

 

[Madball13]

It's easy for people to say they'd refuse a search without a rifle pointed in their face and a cop geared up like a soldier barking at them to get out of the way.

I'm sure they didn't say yes or no just BAAAAA

 

[economist]

I had a lengthy discussion with an officer that was on one of the teams that went door to door. His team searched over 100 hundred houses and did not have one refusal to search. I asked him what were his orders if someone refused and he basically they were ordered to not forcefully enter a house. If they assumed there was a problem then they would surround the house and call it in. What i found shocking is that not one person refused a search.

My take on that (nobody / almost nobody refusing) is that people cave under pressure. They fear the army outside the door and know that whatever their theoretical rights may be, the reality at present is that they are facing an armed mob. That the mob is paid with tax dollars is really just a trivial detail. The choice is fight or comply. Die or crawl.

This is why process is so very important. The game is already lost if we rely on random citizens to resist an army sent by their government. The army should not have been sent.

what if you were being held hostage and one of the guys made your wife answer the door at gunpoint and tell them to go away and they said "OK, no problem guys see you later" ?

Just playing devils advocate here no need to

Outcomes do not determine the morality of choice. Ends do not justify means. There is all of the difference in the world between an act of commission and one of omission. Bad outcomes are a part of life. We do nothing to improve our situation by employing bad acts, however well intended.

In your example, the totality of the problem is caused by the criminal holding the hostage. The police, being mere people, have no culpability for that act. We are not our brother's keepers. Likewise, no culpability can be assigned for any failure to stop or prevent the outcome. You suggest we violate natural rights -- that is, engage in overt acts of known moral fault -- in order to perhaps prevent other acts of evil. We simply do not do that in a free and moral society. We tolerate bad outcomes because they are inevitable. We protect liberty above all else because to betray that liberty is a bargain with evil.

 

[taz-2005]

The take away for me is that I will never ever live in a city. Leave them for the vermin, illegals, 47%'s and low information voters.

Not that this couldn't happen in the 'burbs but there is a lesser chance.

 

[josh2600]

if you make that assumption, you might as well assume someone is lying/being made to lie in EVERY situation.

Ever met a cop? They do.

 

[Jason Flare]

I love it when a cop tells me he can easily get a warrant, because my answer is, "I'm glad it won't be difficult for you. You need a warrant."

Yes, this happens often, and the most recent time was about two weeks ago, and yes, they always try to get in without a warrant and then tell me they can get one easily. Go figure.

 

[josh2600]

I love it when a cop tells me he can easily get a warrant, because my answer is, "I'm glad it won't be difficult for you. You need a warrant."

Yes, this happens often, and the most recent time was about two weeks ago, and yes, they always try to get in without a warrant and then tell me they can get one easily. Go figure.

I think your lab needs better ventilation

 

[noddaduma]

If cops were to come wanting to sweep my house, I'll tell them NO. If they don't have a warrant, they can pound sand. MY house, MY responsibility.

This ain't the Soviet-****ing-Union

It's easy for people to say they'd refuse a search without a rifle pointed in their face and a cop geared up like a soldier barking at them to get out of the way.

That's the type of thinking that leads to lost liberty.

 

[Rider]

You know, for all the tinfoilery I participate in, I have talked to MSP troopers who told me that the teams were knocking on doors, asking if everything was ok, and moving on if the residents responded accordingly. I have also heard from residents confirming that this is exactly what happened.

So while I have seen the videos, and am pretty horrified by the video of guys carrying their daughters out of the house at gunpoint, that isn't what happened universally, and I'd like to hear an explanation of those cases and a statistical breakdown of the search procedures and results.

You know, to the extent that i am entitled to one as a citizen.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I had a lengthy discussion with an officer that was on one of the teams that went door to door. His team searched over 100 hundred houses and did not have one refusal to search. I asked him what were his orders if someone refused and he basically they were ordered to not forcefully enter a house. If they assumed there was a problem then they would surround the house and call it in. What i found shocking is that not one person refused a search.

Most all Americans are sheep and willfully will go for a strip search if they believe it will result in more "safety" (perceived).

It's easy for people to say they'd refuse a search without a rifle pointed in their face and a cop geared up like a soldier barking at them to get out of the way.

True, When 6 ninjas are at your door covered head-to-toe in black, carrying scary guns, it's a very ballsy person indeed who will stand up for their rights. I'm also certain that their tone of voice matched their intimidating outfits and gives one the impression that it is either acquiesce or face perhaps even getting shot.

 

[garandman]

I've had this discussion with folks about 100 times. "If you knew the bad guy wasn't in your house - would you want the police wasting their time searching it anyway?"

 

[pernox]

I love it when a cop tells me he can easily get a warrant, because my answer is, "I'm glad it won't be difficult for you. You need a warrant."

Yes, this happens often, and the most recent time was about two weeks ago, and yes, they always try to get in without a warrant and then tell me they can get one easily. Go figure.

Okay, I'll bite.

Why do the cops want to search your property often?

 

[BrianK]

If cops were to come wanting to sweep my house, I'll tell them NO. If they don't have a warrant, they can pound sand. MY house, MY responsibility.

This ain't the Soviet-****ing-Union



That's the type of thinking that leads to lost liberty.

Cool. And if the evildoer does get in, the cops should leave things to you. Their responsibility stops at your door.

 

[Kaldone]

Cool. And if the evildoer does get in, the cops should leave things to you. Their responsibility stops at your door.

Well, since they don't have to protect you anyways....

And what does sweeping the house when 'evildoers' are not there, have to do with assisting you if evildoers break in?

 

[Terminator03]

Okay, I'll bite.

Why do the cops want to search your property often?

I'm glad you asked this, because if this is a "common" thing for Jason Flare then there is probably more to this than he is saying at this point. No one that I currently know, or have ever known in my 45 years on this planet has ever been in a situation to tell police to "go get a warrant", but who knows, maybe the Berkshires where Jason lives is a hotbed of crime, or something. Care to comment on this, Jason?

 

[Terminator03]

Most all Americans are sheep and willfully will go for a strip search if they believe it will result in more "safety" (perceived).




True, When 6 ninjas are at your door covered head-to-toe in black, carrying scary guns, it's a very ballsy person indeed who will stand up for their rights. I'm also certain that their tone of voice matched their intimidating outfits and gives one the impression that it is either acquiesce or face perhaps even getting shot.

I have to agree with you on this Len. It is the whole "power perceived, is power achieved" thing at play. It's not like those JBTs roll up and say "Golly gee mister, would you mind if the boys and I have a little looky loo in your house?". It probably goes more like "Step aside! We NEED to search this premises NOW!"

 

[JohnZ]

If I made my place a gun free zone, would they have to leave their weapons outside?

 

[Terminator03]

If I made my place a gun free zone, would they have to leave their weapons outside?

IDK the answer to that, but you'd be pretty screwed yourself wouldn't you, if you couldn't keep your guns in your own house?

 

[brimed]

I'm still waiting to hear an explanation of why the final shootout was roughly 100 rounds of police fire against an unarmed man? Especially when FBI and the car jack victim stated they only had one gun and it was recovered at the first shoot out.

 

[In God We Trust]

I'm still waiting to hear an explanation of why the final shootout was roughly 100 rounds of police fire against an unarmed man? Especially when FBI and the car jack victim stated they only had one gun and it was recovered at the first shoot out.

If you kill a cop, they usually don't let you surrender. They take that shit personally for some reason.

 

[economist]

I'm still waiting to hear an explanation of why the final shootout was roughly 100 rounds of police fire against an unarmed man? Especially when FBI and the car jack victim stated they only had one gun and it was recovered at the first shoot out.

If you kill a cop, they usually don't let you surrender. They take that shit personally for some reason.

That, and who knew at the time whether he was armed, had bombs on him, etc? Anyone worth shooting at once is worth shooting at 100 times, so numbers mean nothing here apart from telling us a little bit about the size of the team that was shooting. I don't like the search process, nor the political message to residents to cower and submit. But, the tactics of taking him in once they had him located is the least of my concerns.

 

[noddaduma]

Cool. And if the evildoer does get in, the cops should leave things to you. Their responsibility stops at your door.

I'd bet $2 you are being sarcastic, which if I'm right is unfortunately a sad testimony to your understanding of American Liberty and private property in this country.

MY PROPERTY, MY RESPONSIBILITY.

 

[Rider]

I'm still waiting to hear an explanation of why the final shootout was roughly 100 rounds of police fire against an unarmed man? Especially when FBI and the car jack victim stated they only had one gun and it was recovered at the first shoot out.

Someone probably popped one and all hell broke loose.