Boston Lockdown, Refused to Let Police in a Home?

[scubadive.ri]

I started reading this and was instantatly pissed. Is this the typical thought process of most LEO's? I hope not!

Boston bombing lockdown: Could you have refused to let police enter your home?

 

[Boghog1]

if you don't have anything to hide whats the big deal [/sarcsm]

 

[not new guy]

if you don't have anything to hide whats the big deal [/sarcsm]

I'm still in shock that we have more than a few people on this board who have the nerve to post this without the sarcasm.

 

[rcoolbaugh]

In the video I saw the residents were being patted down as they left .... seems like more than a "sweep" to me. I'm pretty sure none of them were hiding the suspect in their pockets.

 

[Dench]

lenS will be along to tell us its for our own safety.

You know, like the TSA is for our safety.

 

[bullseye]

BANG, BANG, BANG, Let us in, Universal SWAT to sweep your house, hand them a broom and tell them to get busy by the kitty litter.

 

[swatgig]

I'm still in shock that we have more than a few people on this board who have the nerve to post this without the sarcasm.

I figured the sarcasm was assumed.

 

[Lcstyle]

what if you were being held hostage and one of the guys made your wife answer the door at gunpoint and tell them to go away and they said "OK, no problem guys see you later" ?

Just playing devils advocate here no need to

 

[LoginName]

I wonder how it would have played out if a Watertown resident, with an LTC issued by that department refused to comply?

Given that it's a notorious "red" community WRT to issuing licenses, there's a good chance that the CLEO (Ed Deveau), would have used his discretion to revoke or deny a LTC upon renewal.

See Godfrey v. Chief of Police of Wellesley

http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bardwell/godfrey_v_chief.txt

Notwithstanding the serious danger that existed, especially to
children, Godfrey invoked his constitutional rights and refused to
cooperate with the police. The chief stated that while he
respected Godfrey's constitutional entitlements, he also had to
recognize the "serious danger which continues to exist." It is on
that basis that the chief determined that Godfrey was "no longer a
suitable person to be licensed to carry a firearm."

 

[Mike_]

at least there was a sweet south park reference in the article...

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

at least there was a sweet south park reference in the article...

Gonna have a "bad time."

 

[WallHack]

what if you were being held hostage and one of the guys made your wife answer the door at gunpoint and tell them to go away and they said "OK, no problem guys see you later" ?

Just playing devils advocate here no need to

Too late, I'm doing it anyways: if you make that assumption, you might as well assume someone is lying/being made to lie in EVERY situation. As such, you no longer have any 4th Amendment rights. BOR is all-or-nothing, not "ehhhhhhhhh, this'll do"
Life is all about risk, and I'll take the risk that this very specific scenario may happen in these very specific circumstances if it means protecting my right to refuse unwarranted searches and seizures the other 99.999999999999% of the time. Next time, think.

 

[Squire]

I appreciate your offer to search my property for the fugitive, but I'll decline your offer, as I've already done so, and if he were here, he'd be dead, and I would have called you to cone get him.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Palladin]

I appreciate your offer to search my property for the fugitive, but I'll decline your offer, as I've already done so, and if he were here, he'd be dead, and I would have called you to cone get him.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

this

 

[Len-2A Training]

lenS will be along to tell us its for our own safety.

You know, like the TSA is for our safety.

We do not know each other and you CERTAINLY know nothing about me!

There is no way in hell that I can condone what went on or that this or TSA is "OK"!!

I will say (after reading the article) that I'm certain that they would NOT take no for an answer and would kick in the doors/threaten and perhaps even arrest anyone that stood in their way. I also have no doubt that they had "judge rubber stamp" on hot-standby if they felt that intimidation might not work. I have no doubt that they would get any search warrants that they requested IF they felt a need for one (vs. using the exigency excuse).

Mob action is an interesting study in psychology (not my area of expertise, but I have witnessed it in action) both by groups of "ordinary folks" and LEOs who are amped up on power and crisis situations. While a single cop or two might take no for an answer, when 6-12 SWAT members come to the door, they won't go away without getting their way. [I graduated college the year of the "student strike" (Vietnam War protests) and as news director of the college radio station (ABC affiliate), witnessed anti-war groups throwing large rocks at the police (that were standing in a line, as a barrier) as well as a large group of Boston PD officers arrive and start swinging clubs at kids heads (these college kids were doing absolutely NOTHING illegal or bad, standing around cheering a hot rodder on St. Stephens St - I was there ~15 minutes before the police arrived).]

My answer to TSA is that I refuse to go near an airport anymore. I'd be arrested before allowing them to manhandle my Wife. My Wife is upset, but I refuse to fly. We used to vacation in the Caribbean twice a year for probably 20 years, going thru 6 security checks for each trip. My last trip was in 2003 and the BS just isn't worth it. We now drive for vacations, just came back from a week in VT . . . it's now time to see E. USA.

I wonder how it would have played out if a Watertown resident, with an LTC issued by that department refused to comply?

Given that it's a notorious "red" community WRT to issuing licenses, there's a good chance that the CLEO (Ed Deveau), would have used his discretion to revoke or deny a LTC upon renewal.

See Godfrey v. Chief of Police of Wellesley

http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bardwell/godfrey_v_chief.txt

I have no doubt at all that if Watertown PD was notified that the LTC would be revoked. Not sure that they were "keeping score" as they went house to house, but if they were taking notes repercussions for "contempt of cop" would be expected.

 

[Quiet]

Just wondering...?

Seems to me that the discussion of getting a warrant quickly presupposes that there is probable cause for the warrant, in the case of the suspected DUI driver, the evidence that he appeared to be unsteady on his feet, smelled like he was drunk, had glassy eyes (did I miss any of the standard ones?) and he had caused an accident according to the witnesses and positioning of the vehicles.

In the case of the homeowner refusing entry for "a sweep" of a house in a fishing expedition of a 20 block area? While judges are human, I'd hope that they'd at least give it a little thought.

IANAL...

 

[TZCHRIS]

what if you were being held hostage and one of the guys made your wife answer the door at gunpoint and tell them to go away and they said "OK, no problem guys see you later" ?

Just playing devils advocate here no need to

Well if she knows morse code she just blinks her eyes in the S O S pattern and Bruce Willis comes down the chimney to save everyone!

 

[shamrockjr]

I believe a citizen should have the every right to bar the PD from an unwarranted search. I also feel the cops were in tough situation: innocents had been murdered and there was enormous pressure on them to catch the bad guy. I don't like the slippery slope the "sweep" as opposed to "search" argument introduces. But I am grateful for the LEO's who risked their lives to apprehend this loser.

 

[jtorbin88]

Say some one was doing drugs when the cops sweeped they can't charge that person right? Or say some one had a gun unlicensed they were cleaning and police found it could says person be charged for the results of an unlawful search?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Say some one was doing drugs when the cops sweeped they can't charge that person right? Or say some one had a gun unlicensed they were cleaning and police found it could says person be charged for the results of an unlawful search?

If you "let them in" it becomes a legal search and yes you can be charged (if they want to do so).

If you refuse and they break in "exigent circumstances" excuse, it would probably be thrown out by any fair judge (assuming one such judge exists in MA). IANAL, just my take on it.

 

[not new guy]

Just wondering...?

Seems to me that the discussion of getting a warrant quickly presupposes that there is probable cause for the warrant, in the case of the suspected DUI driver, the evidence that he appeared to be unsteady on his feet, smelled like he was drunk, had glassy eyes (did I miss any of the standard ones?) and he had caused an accident according to the witnesses and positioning of the vehicles.

In the case of the homeowner refusing entry for "a sweep" of a house in a fishing expedition of a 20 block area? While judges are human, I'd hope that they'd at least give it a little thought.

IANAL...

What do you think of the fact that judges in MA don't even need to be lawyers or have ever passed the bar?

 

[tree]

My answer to TSA is that I refuse to go near an airport anymore. I'd be arrested before allowing them to manhandle my Wife. My Wife is upset, but I refuse to fly.

I feel the same level of disgust with respect to TSA as you do and admire your having been able to convince your wife not to use the humiliating and degrading mode of transportation that the airlines have become.

Unfortunately, I only have managed to reduce my flying experience to once a year because I could not convince my wife to give up on the once a year December vacation in a warmer climate. If it were only me, I'd not put my foot in any airport unless in extreme circumstances which a vacation is not.

 

[Quiet]

What do you think of the fact that judges in MA don't even need to be lawyers or have ever passed the bar?

I think that's great, actually.

I would love to see Sheriff Joe Arpaio as a Supreme Court Justice. Oh wait, he might lock everyone up. How about Ron Paul? Oh wait, too old. How about Rand Paul?

 

[kurtb]

In the video I saw the residents were being patted down as they left .... seems like more than a "sweep" to me. I'm pretty sure none of them were hiding the suspect in their pockets.

If they know what the perp looked like - why the f would they need to pat down people as they pulled them out of the houses??

 

[jarhead66]

"If the FBI's legal counsel deemed it necessary to secure a warrant in the wake of entry refusals, they could have them in a fraction of this time."

Then that's what they should have done. Instead they chose the Gestapo, Storm Trooper approach that pissed people off.

 

[quincy]

I was taking a cruise leaving out of NYC and my wife and traveling companions went ahead of me for check-in. I circumvented the empty maze (no line) and they made me go back to the beginning of the maze and start over. What a crock.

 

[Quiet]

"If the FBI's legal counsel deemed it necessary to secure a warrant in the wake of entry refusals, they could have them in a fraction of this time."

Then that's what they should have done. Instead they chose the Gestapo, Storm Trooper approach that pissed people off.

Of course I'd still be angry, but also at the issuing authority instead of just the executive branch

 

[StevieP]

First paragraph at the linked article:

"This one's a tangled mess of legal and practical issues. If you want simplistic speculation or out of context sound bites, there are thousands of Twitter accounts ready to fill this void in your life; otherwise, bear with me."

And then he goes on to speculate for several paragraphs on what he imagines might have happened.

This is about as useless as useless can get. I SAW on the TV that Friday evening, they interviewed a homeowner who, when asked if the SWAT team could search the house, replied that he already had, and that they suspect was not there. The cops shook the man's kid's hand to reassure him, and they went on their way.

 

[swatgig]

And then he goes on to speculate for several paragraphs on what he imagines might have happened.

I too have heard that people refused and the cops left. I also haven't heard any stories of people coming home to find their door was kicked in because they weren't home to answer the door.

I'm curious to hear the story behind the family being brought out at gunpoint and searched, or at least something beyond "We can't tell you why we did it - there is an ongoing investigation".

 

[NewGuyRay]

at least there was a sweet south park reference in the article...

"RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY"