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Athol Pinshoot

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SA John

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MrTwig, drgrant, or anyone else who lives out in the central Mass area: To the best of your knowledge is the pin shoot on at the Woodsman Rifle club this Sunday? And do they have a covered shooting station/stations. (I hate shooting in the rain.) I want to go but it's a hundred mile haul for me. A long way to go if it's raining.

Thanks for any info.

SA John
 
Yes, I talked to someone on Wednesday about it, and it's on as far as I know.

I hope it doesn't rain... but I should find rain gear. I've been dying to shoot
at wood pins for awhile.

-Mike
 
Yep, its on. I've signed up to help so I'll be there, and at the open house tomorrow.

If anything changes I'll post it the the GunRanges & Clubs forum.
 
HMMMM.... Looks like I'll have to make myself available. HAHA Actually, I won't be shooting this Sunday because we have commitments with my new baby. I should be back competing next weekend tough. I did hit the range today and Monday for a little practice which was nice.

SA John I still think I can clear a pin table quicker than you. HAHA Let's make it tough and shoot at just the pin tops. I wonder how my super would work on the pins.

Pete
 
Pistol Pete: Let's make it even tougher and shoot several tables each and then trade guns: you shoot what I bring and I'll shoot what you bring. Shortest time or first to clear wins. And I'll let you set the bet. Hope you've got a single-action revolver to practice with.

All crap aside. I hope you're surviving the baby. In time your life will settle back into something approaching the normal. Now try to get some sleep. Good luck.

9x21: You'ld be a welcome face at a pin shoot. But first find a proper gun. I can fart harder than a sub-caliber 9x21.
 
The way you shoot pins is more like PPC shooting. You have 7 seconds to clear 5 pins. Should be 2.5 seconds max for 5 shots. HAHA

I've actually met SA John and he's a good guy. He's a little slow but he's accurate. HAHA The slow comment doesn't reflect his shooting either. HEHE j/k

I bet my .38 super would be fine on pins. With 7 seconds I could perform a reload between each pin and still easily clear the table. However, I know at the Athol shoots it is about speed. SA John if you do go I know a few of the guys around here that shoot pins and I wonder if you could beat them...
 
In my zeal to zing 9x21, I forgot to thank those guys (MrTwig-drgrant) who responded to my initial question. So, thanks. I really hope the weather holds up, I'd like to shoot out your way. I went out to Westminster a few weeks ago and was disappointed to find that the pin shoot had been changed to a plate shoot. It's tough to use iron-sighted .45s against .22s with red dots. But I did meet a new group of men and it seemed like a good lot. Everyone was very friendly and helpful.

38supermatt: Earlier I read a piece you wrote about the proper handling of the 1911's lockwork. How not to pork it up. You are the first person I've ever run into who has gotten it right. The 1911 is the only auto pistol I shoot, and has been for 30 years. I learned long ago never to drop the slide on an empty chamber for all of the reasons you outlined. It stuns me when I see people who should know better doing just that in gun stores and at the range. I wouldn't even do it to a modern design like a Glock or Sig. Your point about holding down the trigger when thumb cocking is also true, but I must confess to not doing it for fear of forming a bad habit of some kind and having a bad moment at the range or worse. My point to all this is, you know your 1911s. But do you really think a 125gr at 1400fps can move pins as well off a regulation pin table? (3 feet deep) I, too, own an older Series 70 .38 Super and have experimented with both 125s and 147 grain bullets on pins in my own backyard. (125s at 1347 and 147s at 1128) I do not feel that they begin to approach the ability to move pins - new, lumpy, or otherwise - like a standard weight 230 grain .45 bullet at even modest speeds. I think a factory ball cartridge (45) does a better job than anything in .355 and I've run the tests. When you load that 230 up to 900+fps, it's glaring, the difference. The heavy .45 pushes the pin four feet sideways without barely touching the table. I write this not to light you up. I'm just stymied that two people can look at the same problem see two entirely different results. At all of the pin shoots that I've ever been to, I've never seen any caliber but 10mm and .45acp win or even do well. The men shooting the Supers were having poor luck even when making good hits. Maybe the pins we shoot over my way are just heavier? Yeah, I doubt it too. Anybody who's got a thought on this please chime in. And 38supermatt, I ran into Pistol Pete at MRA a month ago. What he does with a gun is something I'm not familiar with. His speed is really something else. If you gave me half the targests to shoot at I could not match him. But that is steel plate shooting at big targets with easy recoiling guns: his glass-sighted 38 against my stock .45s with iron sights. I found Pete to be a really good kid. I'm just dieing to see what Pete and guys who shoot these types of guns can do against heavy targets that require pinpoint accuracy. Maybe I'll get hosed. Should be good fun to find out though.

Respectfully, SA John
 
Pete, you're alive! I just posted that long-winded thing and then I saw that you had popped in. Baby hasn't killed you for lack of sleep yet? Give it time.

After you read the crap I just wrote, I'd be curious as to your thoughts. Me, being old and slow-witted can use all the help I can get.

So here's the game, Pete. I shoot 3 tables for time with my Colt SA. You shoot 3 tables with whatever gun makes you happy. Then we switch guns. I shoot your auto pistol for 3 tables, and you fumble with my cowboy gun for 3 tables. Shortest time for all 6 tables will be the winner of the "Worlds All-Around Handgun Pin Championship." Sounds damned fair to me. What do the others on this board think?
 
SA John said:
Pete, you're alive! I just posted that long-winded thing and then I saw that you had popped in. Baby hasn't killed you for lack of sleep yet? Give it time.

After you read the crap I just wrote, I'd be curious as to your thoughts. Me, being old and slow-witted can use all the help I can get.

So here's the game, Pete. I shoot 3 tables for time with my Colt SA. You shoot 3 tables with whatever gun makes you happy. Then we switch guns. I shoot your auto pistol for 3 tables, and you fumble with my cowboy gun for 3 tables. Shortest time for all 6 tables will be the winner of the "Worlds All-Around Handgun Pin Championship." Sounds damned fair to me. What do the others on this board think?
Click to expand...

I'd be up to that so long as you then meet us for a USPSA match to get a baseline. I've shot pins before and it's just not a game for me. The USPSA game is so much different with so many more elements that I would be amazed if you could come in at 40% of our score. Honestly there is that much of a difference.

As for 38SuperMatt he is the best shooter in this area. He's a master level USPSA shooter and he wins more matches than all of us combined. If you were impressed by how I shoot then you truly need to watch Matt. Like I said before you're a great shooter and I respect your skill. Maybe I'll take you up on the pin shoot and maybe I'll even bring a .45 with heavy loads. How did you do against the Westminster guys? Did you shoot with Lloyd? (the guy with the cane) Were you able to beat him?

As for the steel match at MRA keep in mind I wasn't shooting steel loads I was shooting a 168 power factor load. If I was shooting a 135pf load I would prob. have been faster. Plus, I think some of the targets at that match were MUCH smaller than bowling pins. I've shot pins with my super with good luck. I'd be up to meeting you at the Westminster steel match sometime. I wonder how many of those guys could beat me?

Pete
 
Pete: Funny you should mention Lloyd. I shot in only 3 relays with my heavy gear against the 22's and such before leaving. (heart was set on pins) Was eliminated in one somewhere in the middle of the run. Came in 2nd in another relay, and won one of the relays shooting against Lloyd in the final. Much to Lloyd's credit, he switched to a centerfire auto (had been shoot 22) when we met at the shootoff. I had been shooting a SA .45 Colt. When he switched to the centerfire auto, I switched to a 1911 and beat him. This was on steel plates at way too close a distance: 7-8 yards. Good guys but not a very challenging format. Lloyd seemed like a really nice guy to me. Seemed to have the right attitude about sport.

Maybe at MRA in August we can arrange some kind of manly gun-trading pin shootoff as described above. You do that with me and I'll shoot in any of your games with my 1911. I wouldn't dare enter a SA revolver because of the reloading issues. That should go without saying. I'm mainly interested in seeing you, or some other elite local shooter tackle pins. I have a feeling that I've not seen such shooters in the past. Except for the board member Otasan. He is the best pin shooter I've seen. I only beat him occasionally. He shoots .45 acp and .44 mag when he's serious. .357 when he's messing around. He'll tell you the bigger .44 is better (I think)

Pete, I'm shooting at MRA July 6. If you come maybe we can dream up some kind of torture. Hope to see you then.

SA John
 
Pete, I just reread your last line about your wondering how you'd do against the Westminster guys on their steel plates. With no disrespect meant to those guys, you would not have lost a match. Even shooting your Super against their .22s you would have won. The targets were 5 circles about 6-7" in diameter placed at 7-8 yards. Too close to miss. Even I was shooting without taking a solid sight picture which is something I never, ever, do. It was man-on-man. I think you would have intimidated even the better shooters into shooting too fast. The misses would kill them. There is a large mental aspect to this game. Everything's easy till you get pushed. You would have pushed with both hands.

John
 
PistolPete said:
I've shot pins with my super with good luck. I'd be up to meeting you at the Westminster steel match sometime. I wonder how many of those guys could beat me?

Pete
Click to expand...

If you're experienced at shooting steel I can only think of Lloyd plus maybe three other guys that could potentially beat you, problem is, they typically don't show up all the time. MAYBE I could beat you if you're having a bad day and the wind is blowing in the right direction, but even that I'm doubtful of. Most of the time I beat the really good guys because their gun will malf. I've lost track of the amount of wins I've racked up because the other guys gun malfed. [laugh]

-Mike
 
drgrant: The buggered auto gun is my personal nightmare. Hasn't happened this year yet.

Were you at Westminster a few weeks ago? I was shooting the Ruger New Vaquero with the yellow grips. I also shot a S&W 1911. I switched guns when I thought it was called for. No single-action revolvers shooting 255s at 1050fps when matched against red-dotted .22s. That kind of thing. Last time I shot at Westminster was traditional archery back 20 years ago. Club has changed a whole bunch. Almost didn't recognize it.

SA John
 
SA John said:
drgrant: The buggered auto gun is my personal nightmare. Hasn't happened this year yet.
Click to expand...

It's not just autos.... I've also seen wheelguns die on the line too, although its considerably rarer. [laugh]

Were you at Westminster a few weeks ago? I was shooting the Ruger New Vaquero with the yellow grips. I also shot a S&W 1911. I switched guns when I thought it was called for. No single-action revolvers shooting 255s at 1050fps when matched against red-dotted .22s. That kind of thing. Last time I shot at Westminster was traditional archery back 20 years ago. Club has changed a whole bunch. Almost didn't recognize it.

SA John
Click to expand...

I don't think I was at that shoot... I've missed a lot of them this year, unfortunately. [sad2] Usually when I come up for steel there I bring my Sig X-Five, an SW22A, and my P239 or P228 Sigs.


-Mike
 
Here you go Paul [popcorn].

Are all the steel shoots on Sundays or are any on Saturdays or other days during the week? Sundays are tough for me because of the USPSA matches. That takes my priority second to my new son.

Lloyd is a good guy I've known him for several years now. I don't shoot with him any more but he's a good shooter. All the guys I've met from this area have been really nice. I'll make myself avail. to shoot steel one of these weekends where my wife doesn't want me being gone all day.

Pete
 
I have watched SA John shoot more than any of you men. The only way that you can beat him when shooting revolvers is to shoot as fast as you can. Shoot faster than you are comfortable doing. He never fails to take the pins with one shot. He doesn't leave deadwood. If you are very fast and can make good hits you have a very good chance. There is one man at our shoots in New Hampshire who can do it at times. A few weeks ago at Chester SA John shot three rounds of thirty targets each. That is 90 pins. He won both the auto-pistol and revolver divisions. He only fired 91 shots total. On the third table with his 1911 he needed 6 shots to clear. It's a five pin table. That was his only failure to clear the pin with a single shot. Maybe he is not that fast as Pistol Pete seems to think, but shoot against him on pins. I can't get to this shoot Sunday. If John shows up you will have to shoot fast because you will not win an accuracy contest. I have to think that Pistol Pete is being set up some way if he thinks SA John is slow. That would be just like the sandbagger. He's a funny guy once you get to know him.

I like the idea of SA John swapping guns with anyone using an auto in a pin shooting contest. I can't imagine an auto pistol game shooter being able to handle his Colt SA guns. John can shoot a modern 1911 well enough to make that end of the contest a wash.

Wishing I was there, Sydney
 
Sydney, ask SA John how he did against me at the last match? I'm not a beginner shooter by any means. The way you guys do pins is much different than the way pins are usually shot. Having 7 seconds to shoot 5 pins is not difficult. Typically when shooting pins you are actually racing. I never said SA John wasn't accurate and he loads that SA Revolver faster than I've seen anyone do it before (however, I've never watched anyone reload an SA Revolver). Ask him about my skill level. Shooting accurately is obviously a skill but shooting accurately really quickly is a totally different level of skill.

Pete
 
Sydney: Pete is correct. I shot with him a while back and was embarrassed. I'm pretty happy with what I can do with an SA cowboy gun on pins, but what Pistol Pete does with his auto on plates has to be seen to be believed. It was new to me and I was somewhat stunned. But then I don't get around to his type of shooting event. For me the world of handgun shooting stopped with PPC and silhouette 25 years ago. Only recently have I been shooting pins because I always liked Colonel Cooper's take on what a defensive pistol should be. If you don't know who the Colonel is, you're too young for me. All of this business about who's the best at the Athol pin shoot will be moot if Otasan shows up. He'll punish all of us. If you can't take losing, then don't shoot against him. I simply like to watch him shoot his 1911 so well even if he is dusting me.

SA John, hoping it doesn't rain tomorrow
 
SA John, why do you feel shooting has stopped since PPC? Don't you think it has evolved into so much more? PPC wasn't very practical by any means. I'm not saying that USPSA or IDPA are practical either but def. more so than PPC. The beauty of USPSA is you can use ANY type of gun (for the most part) that you choose. There are so many different classes from revolver to open and everything in between. Honestly, you should give it a try sometime and not even from a competitive standpoint but just from a shooting standpoint. I think you'll look at your shooting skills in a new light. When you start moving and shooting on the move so many things change. You have the skills to do well in a match and have the most important factor of any shooting discipline "safe gun handling skills."

Pete
 
Pete: I think you misunderstood, or more likely I didn't make myself clear. What I meant by the world of shooting ended with PPC is that I stopped shooting in handgun matches back in the early 80s when PPC and silhouette ruled the roost. I got involved in competitive kayak and marathon canoe racing back then and ultimately got involved in manufacturing race boats. Business and a different sport pushed shooting aside. Only in the past couple of years have I returned to competitive shooting. A lot has happened since my absence. When I started shooting again, bowling pins were being shot in my area and they appealed to me because it was like silhouette shooting in that the targets fell down. And it required bullseye accuracy with a heavily loaded defensive-type gun. Add to that it doesn't require a great deal of movement (read youthful quickness - I'm 51 with degenerative disc problems) and you can see my attraction to pins. All the stuff you guys do is really cool and indicative of where the sport had to go eventually. It took time and I was not around during the massive change that occured. What I bemoan about the change is the migration to smaller calibers, optical sights, the complete absence of fine leather, and courses of fire that promote speed over eveything else. At least that's how I see it. But I'm an old fart. If I was your age today, I'm sure that I'd be using equipment exactly like yours. When I was designing and building racing hulls twenty years ago, I always strived for the next best thing. It is natural in all human endevours. What you shooters are doing with your specialty guns is very interesting. I simply choose to stay with the equipment that is familiar and comfortable to me. Nobody gets better at anything in their 50s athletics wise. I have no plans to change guns and try to make the National Team. (if there is such a thing in pistol) What I prefer is to shoot the local pin shoots and irritate the young buggers like you on the web because I can no longer properly irritate you at the range - you're too damn good for me on steel! Hope that makes some kind of sense.

See you MRA I hope, SA John
 
This is what is truly great about the shooting sportS. There is a game for basically everyone. For me there is USPSA, steel, and anything that requires speed. I might even dabble in IDPA. For others there is bowling pins, cowboy action shooting, bullseye, ppc, long range rifle, air pistol, air rifle, etc etc. It's good for me to take a step back and look at the shooting sports as a whole. Because of the games that I enjoy I view good shooters as those that can shoot accurately very quickly. This isn't the only aspect in shooting. Accuracy is the most important factor in any shooting discipline. I feel you can learn something from anyone in any game because there is just so much to learn. The beauty for us younger guys is that the older generation already found what works best (for now) so we can use their knowledge and adapt it to work best for us. The older generation didn't have that so they had to learn this for themselves.

Pete
 

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