At what point should I start reloading?

[mac1911]

Toss this one out there

When I made the decision I was going to reload. I stopped shooting/buying for 10 months and saved! At that time I was shooting
5k plus shotgun and about 7k plus combined center fire.
Did not take long to save a nice budget. At that time 223 was still under 30 cents a round and I,could buy HXP 30-06 for .36 , 54r 80$ tin
Plus 303 and 8mm surplus was,still kicking around.

I had enough money to buy all,the tools, gauges,dies and a few years worth of bullets , primers, powders ( I had been reloading on someone's else's presses and had loads developed already)
I spent the bulk of my budget on supplies and dies. I might up grade to a Dillon 650 at some point.
I don't shoot like I used to and have plenty of free time to reload on the single stage. I'm a boring person I don't do shit. So sitting in the reloading crevice after the kids go to sleep for a,few hours is my excitement.

 

[jtnf]

I drank the and don't regret doing so (yet!)
I don't crank out the volume of rounds that Eddie Coyle does, and don't imagine I ever will in a session, month, year, or lifetime.

My logic in picking the L-N-L AP was the cheap caliber conversion (shell plate plus two, three, or four die bushings,) and it was an auto-progressive at about the same price point as the manual indexing Dillon 550b.
A secondary concern, in my decision matrix at the time, was that the Hornady powder drop is agreed to be very good.

The economies of reloading improve greatly with more obscure ammo, as has been said above.
My oddest ammo (and the shells I've loaded most of on the LNL) is .32 S&W Long. The absolute cheapest available right now is $20/50, online and in stock, while locally I've seen $25 - $30 / 50.
95 grains of lead, 2 grains of powder, and the primer, I can load these for under $0.10 each.
The percentage saved will be less with 9mm or anything else that is of current manufacturer, and made in huge quantities.

 

[EddieCoyle]

To me, it's not so much the time and volume as it is the nuisance stoppages. I hate them. I would rather reload on a single stage press than on a progressive that doesn't run right. Every second I spend messing with a case feeder, priming system, cartridge ejector, etc is wasted. It may be slower, but at least with a single stage press, every action I take represents progress and not downtime.

I find the "three-steps-forward-one-step-back" routine of a crappy progressive press to be downright infuriating.

I bought the 650 not because of the output, but because of the reliability.

 

[Chet0729]

I will agree with Eddie. I have a Lee Load Master that I got for free that was never used. It works but requires constant tinkering and a lot of stoppages. I have loaded 45, 223 and 243 on it and plan on getting some 9 components.
After seeing some of the other presses people have if I were starting over I would bite the bullet and get the 650 I think.
I am not a high volume reloader but I will usually sit down and do 2-300 at a session. I don't prime on the press as it was more trouble than it was worth on the Load master and I can hand prime pretty fast.

 

[xtry51]

Savings on 9mm are negligible, but as Mike mentioned, once you start shooting 44 mag and 44 spc, huge savings. I wouldn't have a 44 if i wasn't reloading.

Also, I loaded up 300 rounds of .223 last night, in prep for the bump fire stocks in the group buy. Definitely some savings there, especially since you have the brass.

This is probably as good a time as any to start, with the cold weather approaching. Can have a nice stockpile by spring, unless of course, you shoot all winter like most of us.

Negligible? Where are you buying accurate, high quality brass 9mm for $130/k? Tell me so I can stop reloading.



To the OP, start with 9mm because its easier to learn and there's less steps and equipment needed (no need to trim, unlike .223). I'd recommend a Rockchucker or a Lee 4 hole turret to start. Get a progressive like a Dillon 650 when you when you're ready to move to .223

 

[Rim Job]

Negligible? Where are you buying accurate, high quality brass 9mm for $130/k? Tell me so I can stop reloading.



To the OP, start with 9mm because its easier to learn and there's less steps and equipment needed (no need to trim, unlike .223). I'd recommend a Rockchucker or a Lee 4 hole turret to start. Get a progressive like a Dillon 650 when you when you're ready to move to .223

I kinda went wild in the reloading classifieds, so in a little bit I'll own a Dillon 550

 

[bob68]

pm sent

 

[xtry51]

I kinda went wild in the reloading classifieds, so in a little bit I'll own a Dillon 550

Lol. Nice! Still start with pistol. Taking Eddie Coyle's class would be well worth it as well.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Buy whatever you want - I don't have to use it. In my experience, about 40% of Lee's products are decent, 15% are below average, and 45% are complete shit.

I don't make money on equipment. I'm all done recommending products that have proven to work, only to have a cheapskate that's already made up his mind argue that the Lee stuff is just as good before ever trying anything. It isn't. I'm not saying you're a cheapskate, or that you've already made up your mind, but if a Lee product is half the cost of another brand, there's a really good chance that it's about 1/4 as good. You want Lee? Go for it. You're buying the Harbor Freight of reloading equipment, and you'll get what you pay for. Maybe what you pick will be in the 40% of decent products, but odds are it won't.

If you're considering a Hornady L-N-L; don't. Save up a little more and get a Dillon 650. I'm one of the few people here that has loaded over 100K rounds on both the L-N-L and the 650. I can say without reservation that the 650 is a much better machine than the L-N-L. Anybody that wants to say that the L-N-L is as good (or better) than the 650, take this challenge:

Get your press all set up, load up your powder hopper, case feeder, and primer magazine, and start making ammo by pulling the handle, and placing the bullet ONLY. Stop when you have to mess with anything else. In other words, STOP if you have to help a case into the shell plate, unjam the funnel at the top of the case feeder, futz with the primer shuttle, help eject a finished round, or anything else.

Count the number of times you can pull the handle without doing anything other than placing the bullet. I'm confident that I can do it 100 times on my 650 because after 100 pulls, the primer tube is empty. You're lucky to get a dozen on an L-N-L. Once the L-N-L has some miles on it, you'll be lucky to get 5. I'm not exaggerating either. I got sick of it and sold my L-N-L for pennies (OK, dimes) on the dollar with the provision that I never hear from the buyer again.

This ^^^^^^ testimony has convinced me that the next press I buy will be a Dillon 650.

I operate a 550B now and have loaded upwards of 150K rds on it with some parts replacement but it works well. I will at some point upgrade to a 650.

Thanks for the great info.

 

[Nickle]

i reload my .44 mag with a lee hand press, measuring every charge, in my study. i shoot 50 to 100 rounds every 2 weeks. yep its slow and tedious, but its a zen thing for me. i enjoy the whole process and im not in a big hurry. it makes me smile, i guess thats what counts.

That hand press is actually one of the few Lee things that isn't too bad. Slow? Yes it is, but it works well.

I can tell you it won't work so well for semi-auto rifles, though, as it doesn't fully resize rifle cartridges. Not so sure about pistol, so I have no opinion there.

 

[peterthefish]

If you're considering a Hornady L-N-L; don't. Save up a little more and get a Dillon 650. I'm one of the few people here that has loaded over 100K rounds on both the L-N-L and the 650. I can say without reservation that the 650 is a much better machine than the L-N-L. Anybody that wants to say that the L-N-L is as good (or better) than the 650, take this challenge:

Get your press all set up, load up your powder hopper, case feeder, and primer magazine, and start making ammo by pulling the handle, and placing the bullet ONLY. Stop when you have to mess with anything else. In other words, STOP if you have to help a case into the shell plate, unjam the funnel at the top of the case feeder, futz with the primer shuttle, help eject a finished round, or anything else.

Count the number of times you can pull the handle without doing anything other than placing the bullet. I'm confident that I can do it 100 times on my 650 because after 100 pulls, the primer tube is empty. You're lucky to get a dozen on an L-N-L. Once the L-N-L has some miles on it, you'll be lucky to get 5. I'm not exaggerating either. I got sick of it and sold my L-N-L for pennies (OK, dimes) on the dollar with the provision that I never hear from the buyer again.

I don't load on a Dillon and haven't other than when I learned loading. However after reading something similar on Enos the other day while loading I setup my phone to record video and pulled the lever 210 times in 11 minutes (including refilling the primer tube twice) with no issues other than one where I put a bullet on crooked - hardly the machines fault.

A 3/4" PVC pipe extension on the case feeder drop tube fixed 99% of my issues which came from the dropped case bouncing off the press or out of place. The occasional case jamming in the case feeder shell plate I can usually clear without breaking stride.

Granted, the machine probably only has 20 - 25K rounds through it so maybe things will get worse, but for the price sans case-feeder I think it's a great press to start on, and can easily push out 500 rounds / hour which beats the pants off any single stage.

 

[EddieCoyle]

sans case-feeder

The case feeder is the source of most of the problems.

ETA: The priming system is poorly designed too. You are literally one handle-pull away from replacing parts, and after you replace them, you're one handle-pull away from replacing them again.

 

[highscore]

This ^^^^^^ testimony has convinced me that the next press I buy will be a Dillon 650.

I operate a 550B now and have loaded upwards of 150K rds on it with some parts replacement but it works well. I will at some point upgrade to a 650.

Thanks for the great info.

After 150k rounds, it will take you a long time to get used to the 650! And I thought I loaded a lot of rounds...

 

[peterthefish]

The case feeder is the source of most of the problems.

ETA: The priming system is poorly designed too. You are literally one handle-pull away from replacing parts, and after you replace them, you're one handle-pull away from replacing them again.

And this little piece of pipe has solved 99% of those problems (after stoning the sliding surfaces on the pivot);

What parts on the primer system? The only issue I've ever had is the wheel coming off the slide - called and they sent me another, never needed it though - just loctited the axle back in and it's been fine since.

 

[drgrant]

Buy whatever you want - I don't have to use it. In my experience, about 40% of Lee's products are decent, 15% are below average, and 45% are complete shit.

I don't make money on equipment. I'm all done recommending products that have proven to work, only to have a cheapskate that's already made up his mind argue that the Lee stuff is just as good before ever trying anything. It isn't. I'm not saying you're a cheapskate, or that you've already made up your mind, but if a Lee product is half the cost of another brand, there's a really good chance that it's about 1/4 as good. You want Lee? Go for it. You're buying the Harbor Freight of reloading equipment, and you'll get what you pay for. Maybe what you pick will be in the 40% of decent products, but odds are it won't.

If you're considering a Hornady L-N-L; don't. Save up a little more and get a Dillon 650. I'm one of the few people here that has loaded over 100K rounds on both the L-N-L and the 650. I can say without reservation that the 650 is a much better machine than the L-N-L. Anybody that wants to say that the L-N-L is as good (or better) than the 650, take this challenge:

Get your press all set up, load up your powder hopper, case feeder, and primer magazine, and start making ammo by pulling the handle, and placing the bullet ONLY. Stop when you have to mess with anything else. In other words, STOP if you have to help a case into the shell plate, unjam the funnel at the top of the case feeder, futz with the primer shuttle, help eject a finished round, or anything else.

Count the number of times you can pull the handle without doing anything other than placing the bullet. I'm confident that I can do it 100 times on my 650 because after 100 pulls, the primer tube is empty. You're lucky to get a dozen on an L-N-L. Once the L-N-L has some miles on it, you'll be lucky to get 5. I'm not exaggerating either. I got sick of it and sold my L-N-L for pennies (OK, dimes) on the dollar with the provision that I never hear from the buyer again.

This, plus a billion.

About the only thing I can add is RELOADING GEAR PAYS FOR ITSELF. The money you "saved" by buying junk ends up not being dramatic in the long run, it ends up being lost in the noise when you consider the time saved by buying the good stuff and the relative lack of aggravation. Then again compared to some people I view reloading differently. I don't like going into the cellar and burning up hours "cuz its fun". I like reloading because you can make good ammo and save a good amount of money doing it, depending on the caliber and the situation at hand.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Savings on 9mm are negligible, but as Mike mentioned, once you start shooting 44 mag and 44 spc, huge savings. I wouldn't have a 44 if i wasn't reloading.

I wouldn't call 9mm Negligible at this point.... you can still produce better-than-factory 124 gr 9mm for like 50% of the cost of commercial. (I dislike 115gr, but thats a whole other topic).

The other thing that's nice about reloading 9mm is you essentially get to not give a shit. I'd crank out a tub of 400 rounds and shoot until I was tired and still bring ammo home with me. Shooting commercial I'd have to ration myself to a few boxes per trip to keep the costs from getting out of control. Even if you spend the same amount on materials you get more ammunition for the same amount of money you'd spend on commercial. Some of the up front costs, like brass, etc, also burn off quickly... cases like 9mm and .45 can be reloaded a shit ton of times, and if you pickup 98% of the brass you shoot (or 100% in the case of a revolver) a supply of brass will last a really
long time.

-Mike

 

[EddieCoyle]

And this little piece of pipe has solved 99% of those problems (after stoning the sliding surfaces on the pivot);

What parts on the primer system? The only issue I've ever had is the wheel coming off the slide - called and they sent me another, never needed it though - just loctited the axle back in and it's been fine since.

Even the pipe doesn't help with certain calibers (.30 Carbine, 460 or 500 S&W Mag, .357 Mag, .223, and others). I had just as much trouble with the top end of the case feeder (with those calibers) than I did the bottom. I also had to replace every moving part in your picture several times (The rubber bits would wear out, and once it was metal on metal, the die cast aluminum edges would break before you knew it was happening).

If a little particle of something (like tumbler media) gets in front of the sliding primer bar with the wheel on it - it will cause that part not to seat all the way into the base (I'm talking maybe 0.010" to 0.020" away from where it should be). You won't know it unless you're looking right at it - and even then, 0.010" is hard to see). When you seat the primer, the primer punch will scrape the inside of the the little hole in the sliding bar that the primer drops in to. It will shave metal off the bar, shave metal off the primer seating punch (and side-load the crap out of it, loosening it up), and make the hole egg-shaped instead of round. The parts will still kind of work, but the press won't be right until you replace the parts. This failure is not wear related, it can happen at any time.

Hornady knows about this problem. I talked to one of the techs about it when I called for the God-knows-how-manyeth-time to get replacement parts. The tech told me to look at the back of the primer bar every cycle before seating the primer. So that means I would have to look in the case for powder, look at the shell plate in station 1 to make sure the case was lined up, and check the primer bar in the back every time I pulled the handle? Yeah... No... If I have to put up a wall chart to use a press, I have the wrong press.

Speaking of the primer punch, do they still have a steel-on-aluminum situation where the primer punch hits the frame? If so, that's going to cause you problems. There's a fix for it: Take the press off the bench, detail-strip it to remove every part from the frame, then drill a hole and press in a steel insert where the primer punch contacts the frame.

So, in review, when you get an L-N-L with a case feeder, you need to take the press apart, drill the frame, install a steel insert, stone all the sliding surfaces of the case feeder, take apart the top part of the case feeder and deburr all the plastic parts, add fiber clutch washers to the case feeder plates, drill and tap a hole and install a set screw to hold the primer tube in place, disassemble and smooth out the inside of the powder measure, and put a piece of PVC pipe on the case feeder outlet pipe. (There's other "mods" too - here's some guy's 10 minute video with some that I didn't mention: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdrN3zRIAX4)

When you're done, you'll have a press that still doesn't run as good as a 650. It's not worth the difference in price.

 

[DW357]

Even the pipe doesn't help with certain calibers (.30 Carbine, 460 or 500 S&W Mag, .357 Mag, .223, and others). I had just as much trouble with the top end of the case feeder (with those calibers) than I did the bottom. I also had to replace every moving part in your picture several times (The rubber bits would wear out, and once it was metal on metal, the die cast aluminum edges would break before you knew it was happening).

If a little particle of something (like tumbler media) gets in front of the sliding primer bar with the wheel on it - it will cause that part not to seat all the way into the base (I'm talking maybe 0.010" to 0.020" away from where it should be). You won't know it unless you're looking right at it - and even then, 0.010" is hard to see). When you seat the primer, the primer punch will scrape the inside of the the little hole in the sliding bar that the primer drops in to. It will shave metal off the bar, shave metal off the primer seating punch (and side-load the crap out of it, loosening it up), and make the hole egg-shaped instead of round. The parts will still kind of work, but the press won't be right until you replace the parts. This failure is not wear related, it can happen at any time.

I have ran into this issue with debris getting in front of the sliding bar. It's usually brass shavings and other fouling that gets in there. I just clean under the primer bar and clean the primer seater part with a brush every so often to avoid any issues.

 

[oilspill]

I wouldn't call 9mm Negligible at this point.... you can still produce better-than-factory 124 gr 9mm for like 50% of the cost of commercial. (I dislike 115gr, but thats a whole other topic).

The other thing that's nice about reloading 9mm is you essentially get to not give a shit. I'd crank out a tub of 400 rounds and shoot until I was tired and still bring ammo home with me. Shooting commercial I'd have to ration myself to a few boxes per trip to keep the costs from getting out of control. Even if you spend the same amount on materials you get more ammunition for the same amount of money you'd spend on commercial. Some of the up front costs, like brass, etc, also burn off quickly... cases like 9mm and .45 can be reloaded a shit ton of times, and if you pickup 98% of the brass you shoot (or 100% in the case of a revolver) a supply of brass will last a really
long time.

-Mike

100% true. I load a crap-ton of 9mm so I can shoot a crap-ton of 9mm. In the time it takes to get dressed to go to Wallyworld I can run off 100 rounds. The time it takes to drive to Wallyworld I can load another 100 at least. The time it takes to get someone over to unlock the case I can load another 100. All at roughly half the cost of factory ammo.

Hell, the fact that I don't have to interact with the scooter hogs and the FSA is worth it alone.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[peterthefish]

Even the pipe doesn't help with certain calibers (.30 Carbine, 460 or 500 S&W Mag, .357 Mag, .223, and others). I had just as much trouble with the top end of the case feeder (with those calibers) than I did the bottom. I also had to replace every moving part in your picture several times (The rubber bits would wear out, and once it was metal on metal, the die cast aluminum edges would break before you knew it was happening).

If a little particle of something (like tumbler media) gets in front of the sliding primer bar with the wheel on it - it will cause that part not to seat all the way into the base (I'm talking maybe 0.010" to 0.020" away from where it should be). You won't know it unless you're looking right at it - and even then, 0.010" is hard to see). When you seat the primer, the primer punch will scrape the inside of the the little hole in the sliding bar that the primer drops in to. It will shave metal off the bar, shave metal off the primer seating punch (and side-load the crap out of it, loosening it up), and make the hole egg-shaped instead of round. The parts will still kind of work, but the press won't be right until you replace the parts. This failure is not wear related, it can happen at any time.

Hornady knows about this problem. I talked to one of the techs about it when I called for the God-knows-how-manyeth-time to get replacement parts. The tech told me to look at the back of the primer bar every cycle before seating the primer. So that means I would have to look in the case for powder, look at the shell plate in station 1 to make sure the case was lined up, and check the primer bar in the back every time I pulled the handle? Yeah... No... If I have to put up a wall chart to use a press, I have the wrong press.

Speaking of the primer punch, do they still have a steel-on-aluminum situation where the primer punch hits the frame? If so, that's going to cause you problems. There's a fix for it: Take the press off the bench, detail-strip it to remove every part from the frame, then drill a hole and press in a steel insert where the primer punch contacts the frame.

So, in review, when you get an L-N-L with a case feeder, you need to take the press apart, drill the frame, install a steel insert, stone all the sliding surfaces of the case feeder, take apart the top part of the case feeder and deburr all the plastic parts, add fiber clutch washers to the case feeder plates, drill and tap a hole and install a set screw to hold the primer tube in place, disassemble and smooth out the inside of the powder measure, and put a piece of PVC pipe on the case feeder outlet pipe. (There's other "mods" too - here's some guy's 10 minute video with some that I didn't mention: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdrN3zRIAX4)

When you're done, you'll have a press that still doesn't run as good as a 650. It's not worth the difference in price.

Tell me how you really feel! Haven't had the issues with the priming system you described other than it dimpling the press body, and that seems to be self limiting before it causes primers to seat shallow. Also never saw a need to set screw the primer tube in place.

Of the calibers you mentioned 357 and 223 are he only ones I reload in any volume - I'll have to run some brass and see.

Other than stoning parts and adding the pipe I haven't had to do anything else to the case feeder. The shell plates come w a clutch installed... I know they've made many silent improvements over the last few years which is something their competition isn't as diligent about, and yours may have predated many.

I get that it has flaws but think it's a better press for the money for small to medium runs of ammo (not using the case feeder) than the 650 or 550. And I don't have any problems using it for calibers I run a lot of (9mm and 40). Still plan to buy a 1050 in the next year for those, but think the LNL is worth a look.

 

[Fixxah]

When I first thought about buying a progressive press, a dillin 650 was more than an lnl with case feeder. I could get an lnl in a couple of days where the 650 needed to be ordered. So I bought red.
Many of the issues EC brings up are valid but being a mechanical guy I don't mind tinkering. It isn't often that I run 500 rounds without a few hiccups. Considering the fact that range time and reloading are on the back burner until the little guy is a bit older I can live with that. When I join a range and get more time in general, maybe a 650 would be the way to go.
Shelling out almost $4,500 cash for masonry work and sidewalk put a damper on any extra money for quite a while.
I made a handful of fixes and they have worked well. I probably have only loaded around 20k give or take. Also, I like using the rcbs lockout die for piece of mind.
I don't load many calibers beyond .45auto, 5.56mm, 45-70, 30-30, .30-06, .380, 9mm, .44 Mag (waiting to use up what I have in stock before I change over the press.)

 

[EddieCoyle]

yours may have predated many

This is very true. I ran the L-N-L for years. The one I had predated the case feeder. I had to install a new subplate in order to use one. It didn't have the EZ-ject system on it, and I didn't upgrade to it because Hornady wanted me to send the press back and pay some stupid amount per shell plate.

Many of these problems worsened after use. If you've loaded less than 20K rounds you probably haven't started on the downward slope yet.

When I called Hornady to ask if they had any kind of a rebuild program where I could send the press back to be refurbished (like Dillon has), they told me, "No. Buy a new one." So I did. It was blue this time though.

I miss the inexpensive caliber changes on the L-N-L. I still use Hornady powder measures on my 650.

 

[Rim Job]

Now comes the hard part: emptying a room full of junk that hasn't been touched in a decade to make it into a reloading area

 

[mac1911]

Now comes the hard part: emptying a room full of junk that hasn't been touched in a decade to make it into a reloading area

Just pile it in there.......I been cleaning out my reloading area for 6 years now!

 

[mac1911]

The best thing about a Dillon is if you don't like it you can sell it a very little loss if any.....I don't own a Dillon but have been looking for a "deal" on a used 650 on and off for a few years.

 

[Rim Job]

Just pile it in there.......I been cleaning out my reloading area for 6 years now!

It's full of junk, there is literally a 18" path through the room. Cleaning is actually the easy part: upgrading the electrical is the hard part. Everything in that room is 2 prong sockets from back in the 70's

 

[mac1911]

It's full of junk, there is literally a 18" path through the room. Cleaning is actually the easy part: upgrading the electrical is the hard part. Everything in that room is 2 prong sockets from back in the 70's

Yeah, still using extention cord for clamp on light on the rafters above the "bench" been updating for a,long time........basically I'm crammed in the 38" space between the oil tank and hot water heater....I lost all hopes of "my room" when the twins where born....

 

[josh2600]

I kinda went wild in the reloading classifieds, so in a little bit I'll own a Dillon 550

good move. I actually value the progressive aspect more for 9mm than 223. 223 takes so much prep work bs, that although I still use the progressive with it, 9mm is where the 550 really makes me happy, one pull, one bullet.

 

[Rim Job]

good move. I actually value the progressive aspect more for 9mm than 223. 223 takes so much prep work bs, that although I still use the progressive with it, 9mm is where the 550 really makes me happy, one pull, one bullet.

I'm flip flopping on how much 9mm brass I should buy. The obvious answer is whatever the limit on my Amex is, but I'm thinking either 1k or 3k pieces of brass should keep me satiated for a while. Already have 1.1k pieces that I picked up last week.

 

[Nickle]

I'm flip flopping on how much 9mm brass I should buy. The obvious answer is whatever the limit on my Amex is, but I'm thinking either 1k or 3k pieces of brass should keep me satiated for a while. Already have 1.1k pieces that I picked up last week.

PM inbound.