AG Sues Florida Gun Dealers Over Refusal To Hand Over Sales Records

[mikeyp]

New Jersey AG Sues Florida Gun Dealers Over Refusal To Hand Over Sales Records

bearingarms.com

New Jersey’s Attorney General Gurbir Grewal is suing to Florida gun dealers over their refusal to turn over sales records to his office. Grewal wants to know if the firms sold any magazines banned in the state of New Jersey to residents, after investigators with Grewal’s office were able to purchase several banned magazines in an undercover sting operation.

After the two companies received a seize and desist letter ordering them to stop selling magazines to New Jersey residents, Grewal says his investigators haven’t been able to successfully purchase any of the banned magazines. That’s not enough. As NJ.com reports, the Attorney General is very interested in finding out who in New Jersey might be in possession of these magazines.

The suit, filed in Superior Court in Essex County, alleges the companies violated the Consumer Fraud Act by selling the high-capacity magazines. That’s punishable by 18 months in prison and up to a $10,000 fine.
State Attorney General Gurbir Grewal ripped both companies in a statement.
“Large capacity magazines are illegal in New Jersey, which is why I’m continuing to file suits against LCM companies that sell their products to our consumers,” Grewal said. “The companies we’re going after today have repeatedly stonewalled and withheld evidence from investigators, despite a subpoena. These lawsuits serve as yet another warning to the industry: hide the extent of your unlawful sales from our investigators, and we will see you in court.”

 

[mikeyp]

The original story with more info

Gun dealers accused of selling high capacity magazines in N.J. are sued by state

One company didn't respond at all to cease-and-desist orders while the second failed to provide complete records.

www.nj.com

Two Florida-based gun dealers have been sued by the office of the Attorney General in New Jersey after both illegally sold high-capacity magazines to Garden State residents and then refused repeated requests to hand over records of sales they made to addresses in the state.

Elite Aluminum, of Holly Hill, sold eight 30-round large capacity magazines to an undercover detective during three transactions last year while 22Mods4All, based on Longwood, sold nine 30-round LCMs to an investigator on two occasions, according to the Attorney General’s office.


Magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition are illegal in New Jersey.

Authorities in January then sent cease-and-desist letters to both companies, ordering them to stop advertising, selling and shipping the ammunition to New Jersey addresses.

The attorney general’s office said both “appear to have complied” with that portion of the letter as undercover agents were unable to get high-capacity magazines mailed to New Jersey this year.

Each, however, was also told to turn over records of sales to New Jersey addresses dating to Jan. 1, 2014 and neither has done so despite repeated attempts after being issued subpoenas.

The suit, filed in Superior Court in Essex County, alleges the companies violated the Consumer Fraud Act by selling the high-capacity magazines. That’s punishable by 18 months in prison and up to a $10,000 fine.

State Attorney General Gurbir Grewal ripped both companies in a statement.

“Large capacity magazines are illegal in New Jersey, which is why I’m continuing to file suits against LCM companies that sell their products to our consumers,” Grewal said. “The companies we’re going after today have repeatedly stonewalled and withheld evidence from investigators, despite a subpoena. These lawsuits serve as yet another warning to the industry: hide the extent of your unlawful sales from our investigators, and we will see you in court.”

The suit is third filed this year against out-of-state gun sellers who ignore New Jersey laws, the attorney general’s office said. A Nevada company – New Frontier Armory - was sued in June while James Tromblee, Jr., owner of the California-based “ghost gun” company U.S. Patriot Armory was sued in March.

Ghost guns are partially-assembled firearms sold with the parts needed to create a fully-operational gun – and often even with the instructions on how to do so.

Nicholas A. Moschella, the Brick-based attorney for Elite Aluminum, couldn’t immediately be reached for comment.

 

[barnabus]

Ilegal aliens can get driver's license in NJ as the governor signed the bill:

"Expanding access to driver’s licenses is critical for the safety of New Jerseyans and a step toward building a stronger and fairer New Jersey for all,” the governor said in a statement. “

However, a legal citizen cannot exercise their 2nd amendment right beyond 10 cartridges.

I guess that makes sense. As it is "fair"

 

[EC1]

I have always had a lot of respect for sikhs and their philosophy until Grewal came on the scene, now I am having second thoughts.

 

[Palladin]

f*** them

 

[drgrant]

I wonder if companies are going to start having a doctrine of destroying records or at least redacting them systematically. EG nuke the "sold/shipped to" lines on the invoice but still maintain the invoice for tax purposes or whatever..... at least for shit that's mostly unregulated like magazines

 

[whacko]

"Two Florida-based gun dealers have been sued by the office of the Attorney General in New Jersey after both illegally sold high-capacity magazines to Garden State residents"

What the f***? Is every gun store in the country supposed to know every law in all 50 states in order to sell even parts and magazines? Where is the law that was broken here to make that sale illegal? Purchaser may have been buying it as a gift for a Florida resident. Purchaser may have been buying it to leave in their summer home in Florida. Nothing....in my opinion......was illegal about a sale of a standard cap mag to a nj resident while in Florida. A magazine is not a fire arm.....and most are not even serial numbered.

f*** the nj ag

 

[EddieZoom]

"Two Florida-based gun dealers have been sued by the office of the Attorney General in New Jersey after both illegally sold high-capacity magazines to Garden State residents"

What the f***? Is every gun store in the country supposed to know every law in all 50 states in order to sell even parts and magazines?

Unfortunately, the answer to this question according to those who make the laws is YES. That's where we find ourselves these days....

 

[Mesatchornug]

"Two Florida-based gun dealers have been sued by the office of the Attorney General in New Jersey after both illegally sold high-capacity magazines to Garden State residents"

What the f***? Is every gun store in the country supposed to know every law in all 50 states in order to sell even parts and magazines? Where is the law that was broken here to make that sale illegal? Purchaser may have been buying it as a gift for a Florida resident. Purchaser may have been buying it to leave in their summer home in Florida. Nothing....in my opinion......was illegal about a sale of a standard cap mag to a nj resident while in Florida. A magazine is not a fire arm.....and most are not even serial numbered.

f*** the nj ag

I'm sure the NJ AG will limit the search to mags that were shipped to NJ. /s

 

[jaypap]

Reminds me of a joke.

A speaker at a graduating class of lawyers from Harvard say's "I am now a lawyer and a big a**h*** like all of you."

A man in the audience stands up and says I am offended by that remark. The speaker replies are you a lawyer sir ? The man says no I'm a a**h***!

 

[FisherTech]

Once again, Where does New Jersey get any say in a "Lawful" business transaction in another state. Except for the states that require the Government's Consent in writing to purchase and own those items, they have absolutely NO Jurisdiction in any state that does not require such. Those states that pull this BULL SHIT need to be told to POUND SAND. Where is New Jersey going to get a court order that is enforceable in Florida.

 

[Boris]

how is it illegal for FL people to sell shit that's legal in FL to NJ? I thought that responsibility falls squarely on NJ residents purchasing them.

How is NJ AG has jurisdiction in FL? How is he suing them, based on what FL law in FL?

 

[FisherTech]

"The suit, filed in Superior Court in Essex County, alleges the companies violated the Consumer Fraud Act by selling the high-capacity magazines."

The business transaction happen in Florida, where the hell does that Communist Bastard get to apply a New Jersey law to businesses in another state?

 

[Boris]

"The suit, filed in Superior Court in Essex County, alleges the companies violated the Consumer Fraud Act by selling the high-capacity magazines."

The business transaction happen in Florida, where the hell does that Communist Bastard get to apply a New Jersey law to businesses in another state?

ha ha, so they are charging them under NJ law for "fraud" (https://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/Statutes/Consumer-Fraud-Act.pdf)

this is like Cuba sentencing you to fine over freedom or Church of Spaghetti Monster excommunicating you

 

[atmay]

"Two Florida-based gun dealers have been sued by the office of the Attorney General in New Jersey after both illegally sold high-capacity magazines to Garden State residents"

What the f***? Is every gun store in the country supposed to know every law in all 50 states in order to sell even parts and magazines? Where is the law that was broken here to make that sale illegal? Purchaser may have been buying it as a gift for a Florida resident. Purchaser may have been buying it to leave in their summer home in Florida. Nothing....in my opinion......was illegal about a sale of a standard cap mag to a nj resident while in Florida. A magazine is not a fire arm.....and most are not even serial numbered.

f*** the nj ag

If I’m understanding what I read correctly, this is about mail-order sales, not in-person sales...so the magazines were being received by the customers in NJ. This is also the part where the companies have records of where their customers lived.
Or did we think a FL gun shop was collecting addresses of everyone that came into their store?

 

[FisherTech]

Boris, This has been my stand all along, I said the same thing about the gun shop in New Hampshire applying and enforcing Massachusetts law in New Hampshire. It is my opinion that the Business that are being targeted need to file a counter suit in Federal Court against the AG personally for violation of the Commerce Clause of The United States Constitution.

 

[oldgunner]

ha ha, so they are charging them under NJ law for "fraud" (https://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/Statutes/Consumer-Fraud-Act.pdf)

this is like Cuba sentencing you to fine over freedom or Church of Spaghetti Monster excommunicating you

Communists will commie!

 

[FisherTech]

If I’m understanding what I read correctly, this is about mail-order sales, not in-person sales...so the magazines were being received by the customers in NJ. This is also the part where the companies have records of where their customers lived.
Or did we think a FL gun shop was collecting addresses of everyone that came into their store?

It doesn't matter, The transaction still happen in Florida. The ONLY time licensing information is required for lawful transaction is for "FIREARMS PURCHASES.

 

[Boris]

If I’m understanding what I read correctly, this is about mail-order sales, not in-person sales...so the magazines were being received by the customers in NJ. This is also the part where the companies have records of where their customers lived.
Or did we think a FL gun shop was collecting addresses of everyone that came into their store?

that should not matter, if FL law doesn't care who buys hi cap mag on their land.

They may first try to claim that sales to NJ is "fraud" then somehow apply fed statue of "interstate wire fraud"?


I am still not seeing any fraud elements here, especially if both parties are happy with the transaction. This is like state jumping in between two consenting adults saying "no stahp!, it's rape and you are putting it in the wrong hole!" ... or may be NJ does not consider it's residents as "adults"

 

[MaverickNH]

IANAL so don’t know if they have any potential to prevail in a lawsuit. Yes, this is simple harassment to force the companies to pay to defend themselves in court - presumably a NJ court. Then during their appeal when a NJ court rules in NJ’s favor. NJ spends taxpayer dollars against private funds, whether company money or advocacy groups taking up the case too.

Again, it’s Democratic, liberal, progressives *taking* - taking civil rights, taking property, taking money - they are the party and ideology of *taking* from citizen and giving to themselves and non-citizens.

Here’s NJ by politics, population and area. Sh*tholes and Liberal/Progressive Enclaves vs Deplorables...

 

[FisherTech]

IANAL so don’t know if they have any potential to prevail in a lawsuit. Yes, this is simple harassment to force the companies to pay to defend themselves in court - presumably a NJ court. Then during their appeal when a NJ court rules in NJ’s favor. NJ spends taxpayer dollars against private funds, whether company money or advocacy groups taking up the case too.

Again, it’s Democratic, liberal, progressives *taking* - taking civil rights, taking property, taking money - they are the party and ideology of *taking* from citizen and giving to themselves and non-citizens.

That is why the Accused should file in Federal Court per the Commerce Clause.

 

[FisherTech]

Sitting here thinking about this(I know there is the smell of wood burning) The Cop from NJ knowingly conspired to violate the law. This not like an undercover drug buy where the transaction is knowingly illegal.

 

[atmay]

that should not matter, if FL law doesn't care who buys hi cap mag on their land.

They may first try to claim that sales to NJ is "fraud" then somehow apply fed statue of "interstate wire fraud"?


I am still not seeing any fraud elements here, especially if both parties are happy with the transaction. This is like state jumping in between two consenting adults saying "no stahp!, it's rape and you are putting it in the wrong hole!" ... or may be NJ does not consider it's residents as "adults"

It doesn't matter, The transaction still happen in Florida. The ONLY time licensing information is required for lawful transaction is for "FIREARMS PURCHASES.

....the post I quoted used the argument “what if they’re staying in Florida?”....obviously that is not the case.

I disagree with NJ here just like everyone else, but if you’re going to make an argument against something, you should probably make sure that you 1) understand what’s going on, and 2) make an argument that is actually relevant.

 

[LittleCalm]

States uniformly take the position that an Internet sale to a resident of their state is deemed to occur in their state. This is why many states want sales tax on internet sales to their residents. Not a new concept. Don’t get me wrong, I hope NJ loses too.

 

[Lucas McCain]

Bleach bit, if it's good enough for the hilldog... F NJ.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

God shit like this f***ing enrages me. I hope they all get AIDS

 

[MaverickNH]

God shit like this f***ing enrages me. I hope they all get AIDS

Your insurance will just subsidize their $100k+/yr drug treatment regimen...and they’ll probably live.

 

[FisherTech]

....the post I quoted used the argument “what if they’re staying in Florida?”....obviously that is not the case.

I disagree with NJ here just like everyone else, but if you’re going to make an argument against something, you should probably make sure that you 1) understand what’s going on, and 2) make an argument that is actually relevant.

Let's take that back to the claim by Communists Tom Reilly/ Martha Coakley about out of state suppliers of Ammo not having Massachusetts licenses to sell ammo, we know many businesses rolled over like beat puppies, But now you have one company telling the Mass AG to pound sand. The US Supreme Court case only dealt with sales tax. No need to allow that expand on its own by giving it legs.

 

[atmay]

Let's take that back to the claim by Communists Tom Reilly/ Martha Coakley about out of state suppliers of Ammo not having Massachusetts licenses to sell ammo, we know many businesses rolled over like beat puppies, But now you have one company telling the Mass AG to pound sand. The US Supreme Court case only dealt with sales tax. No need to allow that expand on its own by giving it legs.

this has literally *nothing* to do with anything I said.

 

[FisherTech]

this has literally *nothing* to do with anything I said.

Then what are you saying? My argument is very plain. The Communist AG of The Communist State of New Jersey has NO JURISDICTION, in the State of Florida