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AAR 10-8 Consulting 2 Day Intermediate Carbine Class

J

Jose

Last weekend, August 4th and 5th I drove to Battle Creek, Michigan to attend 10-8 Constulting's 2 day intermediate carbine fighting skills class.

The Sunday prior I went to my local club to check my 50/200 yd zero and to run some basic drills as well as wring out my new chest rig. Good thing because my rifle's rear sight came apart and fell on the deck in pieces. This was a flip up unit made by Midwest Industries. With less than a week to go I did what I should have done in the first place and ordered a fixed back up sight from LaRue Tactical the very next day.

On Friday I cut loose from work at lunch and headed to the club to zero the new LaRue sight. That done, I hit the road north at about 12:30, rolling into Battle Creek about 4 hours later. After dumping the gear in the motel room and grabbing some Indian dinner I headed north out of BC to check out the range halfway between BC and the little burg of Bellevue.

Saturday morning dawned clear and warm. Made it to the range at about 8:30 for admin paperwork and briefings at 9:00. Range went hot at 10:00 and stayed hot for the rest of the day. Weapons cocked, loaded, and on safe was the rule unless you grounded one, in which case it was made safe immediately after unslinging or unholstering.

The morning started with prone shooting at 25 yards to make sure everyone was on paper and then back to 50 yards (max distance we shot all two days) for zero verification and fine tuning.

Next on the agenda were basic shooting positions starting with the proper stance for a standing fighting (as opposed to target shooting) position. We then proceeded to work on the position with live fire. Included in the instruction were the different ready positions (low, high, patrol). This was also done to cover other positions such as basic prone, basic supported kneeling and unsupported kneeling. Each position lecture was followed by lots of live fire reps to sink it in.

That done we moved into a discussion and drills regarding the point of impact changes in relation to point of aim at different distances from 3 to 25 yards. At each yard line (3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 25) we shot and noted the offsets needed to place the shot exactly where desired.

We also covered on day one things like anatomy and the effects of handgun and rifle bullets, aimed fire, controlled pairs, hammers, Mozabiques, and Non Standard Responses. We covered basic weapons manipulations, malfunction clearing, basic weapon maintenance. We covered the basics of shooting on the move, intermixing with it earlier learnings.

Day one was long, nearly nine hours and by the time all was said and done I had expended nearly 700 rounds of rifle ammo.

Day two started rainy and later turned drier but very humid. Day two took a decidely more advanced flavor as we started right off doing a long series of command drills from 50 yards and moving in closer. Lots of shooting from all positions at all distances and on the move. We also worked on team drills, box drills, multiple target engagements, more malfuction clearance drills, reloading drills, and the basics of transition to handguns. At the end of the day we ran a qalification course similar to the USMC MEU(SOC) carbine qual course and I took second overall by one point. I went home with a new Viking Tactics two point sling to show for it.

By the end of the weekend I had burned nearly 900 rounds of 5.56 and about 50 of 38 Special (yep, I was the only round gun shooter there). I was sore everywhere, particularly around the shoulders, and had increased my comfort level with operating an AR in a setting closer to reality.

We had thirteen students and one instructor, Joe Riedy. Joe is a retired PO from the Bethlehem PA area and has a great, easygoing teaching style that made some grueling days a lot of fun.

This won't be my last training opportunity. I am hooked on the focused instruction and will seek additional training on both fighting carbines and fighting handguns on a regular basis. Tactical Defense Institute in southern OH still has some Level II and III handgun courses this fall and I will try my best to get on one.
 
In fact, everyone who is serious about armed self defense owes it to him or herself to take some sort of serious training on a recurring basis and then have the self-discipline necessary to apply the lessons learned to practice sessions.

I know money and time are issues, but just having a firearm and plinking makes you no more a gunfighter than having a guitar and plucking away makes you a musician.

Basic marksmanship instruction such as NRA pistol basic, NRA Highpower, and its less formal relatives such as CMP Garand matches and Appleseed shoots are fine for learning some of the fundamentals, but they leave you utterly unprepared to defend yourself with a rifle, pistol, or shotgun. In fact, some of the habits and skills learned in those disciplines are apt to get you killed in a fight.
 
Shooting matches are about refining marksmanship skills; nothing more.

Sounds like you had a good time. How did your rifle, ammo and the steel magazines run?

B
 
Shooting matches are about refining marksmanship skills; nothing more.
We both know that, but a lot of guys haven't gotten the memo.

Sounds like you had a good time. How did your rifle, ammo and the steel magazines run?

Good question. I have two steel AR mags made in Singapore and neither went with me. As soon as I bought them a year ago I noticed they were very hard to seat. Last week I started checking them with calipers and realized that the distance from the top of the mag catch notch to the top of the feed lips was way over what USGI mags measure. I will strip their guts and throw the bodies in the trash. I had a C Products magazine that gave me lots of type 3 malfunction practice on day 2 and that one is also going to Davy Jones' locker after I remove the follower, spring, and floorplate. I'll just buy three replacement bodies from Brownells and rebuild.

I took 720 rounds of UK surplus RORG (Royal Ordnance Radway Green) M855, 400 rounds of Prvi Partizan (Serbia) M193, and 100 rounds of my Hornady 75 reloads. All of it worked perfectly. In fact, I had not a single rifle malfunction that was not caused by the aforementioned magazine.

I run my AR wet. The inside of the bolt carrier where the bolt rides and the cam pin and slot are liberally coated with CLP. Everything else is dry or has a very light (get wet and wipe dry) coat of CLP. I added a couple of drops of lube at those points during lunch on the first day and I could have probably gone the whole day without lubricating as there was still a good bit of oil. I gave the rifle a good field cleaning (scrub and wipe bore and chamber, wipe carbon off bolt and extractor, re-lube) at the end of day 1. A couple of days after getting home I took the rifle to the garage for a good scrubbing with CLP everywhere, hosing it with spray brake cleaner, and relubing.
 
I was just reinforcing your assessment, but it sounds like some of what you were doing paid off if you came in second in their little shoot off. [wink]

I was curious about the C-Products stuff. I'm trying to get an IT team together for next year and wondering if GI stuff would be ok, or if we should rebuild magazines that guys have with new follower and springs or just leave it alone and have them run what they bring.

Did you have a regular extractor spring?

B
 
C Products mags did not have a good rep with others in the class. I have two of them and the other worked just fine. I won't be tossing this one out since I know it works.

I do use Magpul anti-tilt followers in all my 30 round mags. They are superior to the green and black plastic GI followers. It's like night and day. You can push them down with a pencil bearing on one end and they will not bind. Try that with a GI follower and you will probably be disassembling the mag to clear the jam. I strongly suggest you change to Magpul followers in your IT mags. They come in light grey which makes them blend in, but as far as I am concerned follower replacement is an internal modification. I'd stick with good, GI contractor (Labelle, NHMTG, Colt) mag bodies though. I'm not a spring snob. I use GI ones.

My carbine is a mutt. I bought a no name bolt and bolt carrier group from a local gun store. They said it was DPMS. It came with a rifle extractor spring and blue insert but it naver gave me trouble. Still, I changed them to a black carbine insert and a Bravo Company enhanced (stronger) extractor spring. No problems during class excapt a little more brass shavings in the bolt face and barrel extension. I am seeing less brass shavings now, and I think the spring and extractor are taking their permanent set.
 
Great review! It sounds like you had a great time, and came out of this course learning quite a bit.

I have been thinking about upgrading to the MagPull followers, and I think I will have to give a couple of them a try. I'm not sure what it's called, but on another forum folks were talking about some kind of spray coating for the magazines. Not exactly sure, but I think it is some kind of external lube. Any thoughts on that, and it's usefulness?
 
I'm not sure what it's called, but on another forum folks were talking about some kind of spray coating for the magazines. Not exactly sure, but I think it is some kind of external lube. Any thoughts on that, and it's usefulness?
If you use GI spec magazines and your lower is machined correctly (ie the mag well is of the correct dimensions) no lubricating coating is necessary on anything.

The AR world is full of useless gimmicks. Stick to mil-std stuff (or as close as possible) and you will be fine.
 
Great review. Thanks!

Although I've only taken defensive handgun courses, each instructor I've had also teaches carbine courses. Universally they have said that it's amazing as they run courses and the various add-ons fail or cause gun failures.

I'm a minimalist, keep it as close to stock as possible, type of person.

In the classes I attended, I watched "short" 1911s fail at a high rate. A comment was passed that if John Moses Browning had thought that a short 1911 was a good idea, HE would have developed one! [wink]

I had a dampened 1911 recoil assembly that cracked in two (didn't find the cause of my problem until after the class when I broke it down to clean it)! Another shooter (Jim Conway) had his go downrange ~8'! [I didn't see that one, he was using the same device that I did. I returned mine to Midway and never looked back.]

YMMV
 
That done we moved into a discussion and drills regarding the point of impact changes in relation to point of aim at different distances from 3 to 25 yards. At each yard line (3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 25) we shot and noted the offsets needed to place the shot exactly where desired.

Sounds like a great class. I'm just getting into cabines (AR). Can you explain this statement above a little more? If you sight in your gun at 25yds... it would be low at ranges less than that but the most it could be is the distance from your bore to the top of the front sight post correct? Just curious as to how much difference there was.

Thanks.
 
Is there an echo in here, or is Len practicing his "double tap" techniques?! [smile]

I have no idea what you're talking about! [devil]

[Seriously, I'm having a "response" problem with my wireless kbd/mse and sometimes they don't respond and I have to hit enter (or click the mouse) a number of times to get it do it's thing.]
 
Sounds like a great class. I'm just getting into cabines (AR). Can you explain this statement above a little more? If you sight in your gun at 25yds... it would be low at ranges less than that but the most it could be is the distance from your bore to the top of the front sight post correct? Just curious as to how much difference there was.

Thanks.

Yep, you basically have it right. Inside of 25 yards you have to allow for the significant (compared to other rifles) difference between bore centerline and the line of sight. It varies for my rifle from less than 1/2" at 25 to about 2.5" at contact distance (3-5 yds). Not important when doing a CoM shot, but important when trying to nail a dirtbag holding one of your loved ones as a hostage.

While the possibility of one of my loved ones being taken hostage in front of me is very slight, the consequences of failing to stop that situation are extreme. Therefore it pays off to be able to make that type of shot on demand and under stress.
 
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