The truth about the LTR

[dwarven1]

I keep seeing folks talking about doing "builds" for Appleseed, and I'm a bit concerned that folks aren't quite getting it.

A LIBERTY TRAINING RIFLE IS A BATTLE RIFLE SIMULATOR. Period. End sentence.

It's not a sniper rifle, it's not something to make one ragged hole with at 100 yards, or even 50 yards. It's supposed to be an inexpensive rifle to use for short range practice with reduced size targets - as long at it can shoot 4 MOA, with cheap .22LR ammo, with ergonomics that are close to a battle rifle (sling, sights, bolt release) that's all it's it's supposed to do.

To put it another way, it's a $300 rifle that you can use for practice that costs you about $15/day (assuming you shoot 500 rounds a day!) instead of you spending $300 in a day for AMMO. If it's cheap to shoot, you'll shoot more... and learn the skills to be a Rifleman.

Here's the recipe.

• Take a stock 10/22.
• Add studs, sling swivels and a Garand-style sling.
• Dremel out the bolt release or replace it with a Volquartsen or some brand that allows you to pull the bolt back and let it slam forward.
• Add in an extended mag release to allow for faster mag changes.
• Replace the crappy factory sights with some kind of click-adjustable peep sights like Tech-Sights. I understand that Williams are good, too.
• Smooth up the hammer a bit so you don't have a 10 lb trigger pull - or replace it, if you want. Don't go crazy; you don't need a Timney in here!

Voila. You're done. No barrel upgrade needed; stock 10/22's are capable of 4 MOA. No fancy stock needed - the original one will do. Now, you CAN replace the stock if the original doesn't fit you, or you have, say, a collapsible stock and you want one on your LTR, of course. (just watch out for those never-to-be-sufficiently-damned AWBs!)

I'm not saying don't build your Ruger the way you want to, just that you don't NEED to for Appleseed... and you DEFINITELY shouldn't use it as an excuse NOT to go to an Appleseed Shoot. Even showing up with a stock Ruger is better than not showing up at all.

 

[Sprocket]

I agree with your above statements but I can add that once you start reading and changing this and that, it's pretty easy to get into that mode and do funky tricks...and it's kind of addicting and fun in its' own right too.

My advice:
keep a stock-ish 10/22 for an LTR and learn how to shoot and how to work on the gun. Then get another one to go nuts with.

 

[Jedhed]

Good points! I actually didn't like the extended mag release and am probably going to switch back.

Is there a link you could provide for dremeling the bolt release?

 

[Squished]

The false about Dwarven's thread on "the truth about the LTR":

What? Please remove my quote as I am not building my 10/22 for an Appleseed. I'm building it because I already have a long range 10/22 with a 20" bull barrel on a hogue stock, I wanted something shorter and more compact for 50 yards and under. I merely was making the statement it would probably make a good Appleseed gun as well with the internals work and it's overall lightweight and compactness. I think you misunderstood my thread, and other posts regarding my current 10/22. Maybe you should go back and reread those posts rather than worrying about people that "don't get it" because clearly, you don't. Furthermore, you stood next to my other 10/22 at the Appleseed event at the TVI shoot, why would I build another specifically for Appleseed when that one worked fine?

And in all honesty, since anything really goes for what you can shoot at an Appleseed, pretty sure if I sign up for one I'm gonna bring my AR.

A 10/22 does not simulate a battle rifle, nor will it ever.

 

[JonJ]

Good points! I actually didn't like the extended mag release and am probably going to switch back.

Is there a link you could provide for dremeling the bolt release?

Real easy.
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/fixermod.htm

 

[Nickle]

Rimfirecentral has a TON of info on modifying 10/22's, and that's where I got the info on the bolt release when I did mine.

To those that think you'r egoing to game Appleseed scores by using a target rifle, know that it isn't that easy. You either have th eskill or you don't. You can learn it, but a target grade rifle isn;t going to help you all that much.

And, most of those that have been to an Appleseed where my loaners got hauled out know about "the Pimp Gun", a 10/22 International (stock goes to th emuzzle) that has made more Riflemen than any other rifle we know. It's box-stock, other than the very same mods that the Dwarven1 mentioned. It currently wears a 2-7X Leupold, but made most of those Riflemen with a cheap Simmons 4X .22 scope on it. If the Simmons hadn't fogged, it would still be on it.

 

[Squished]

Rimfirecentral has a TON of info on modifying 10/22's, and that's where I got the info on the bolt release when I did mine.

To those that think you'r egoing to game Appleseed scores by using a target rifle, know that it isn't that easy. You either have th eskill or you don't. You can learn it, but a target grade rifle isn;t going to help you all that much.

And, most of those that have been to an Appleseed where my loaners got hauled out know about "the Pimp Gun", a 10/22 International (stock goes to th emuzzle) that has made more Riflemen than any other rifle we know. It's box-stock, other than the very same mods that the Dwarven1 mentioned. It currently wears a 2-7X Leupold, but made most of those Riflemen with a cheap Simmons 4X .22 scope on it. If the Simmons hadn't fogged, it would still be on it.

+1 to Rimfire Central. that site is amazing. That's where I got the inspriation for my current build. I really wanted an "Ultimate" 10/22.

As far as gaming scores with a target rfle....it's the same for anything. Give a 6 second 1/4 mile drag car to a normal person and I'm betting they don't make 6 seconds.

 

[Nickle]

Squished, I agree tha tbuilding a super accurate rimfire rifle isn't a bad thing to do.

You've got to understand that many of us Appleseed Instructors get sick and tired of seeing people think they can game their way to that Rifleman patch.

I know you probably aren't doing that, but, many do.

 

[Squished]

Understood. I build my toys for fun and because I enjoy shooting things I built. Sort of a "wow, I really did some good research on this, what a rifle."

The Appleseed events are pretty cool, but I certainly wouldn't build a rifle around the theory of only using it to compete in one. I had the opportunity to compete at the one in Athol and decided not to, letting someone else use my rifle to compete that day. Maybe eventually I'll try one, but if not, no sweat off my back. No big deal.

 

[P-14]

Can you use a 4x scope for Appleseed or do they only allow iron sights?

 

[dwarven1]

I agree with your above statements but I can add that once you start reading and changing this and that, it's pretty easy to get into that mode and do funky tricks...and it's kind of addicting and fun in its' own right too.

Oh, no argument here on that!! I may do some more modding to my personal 10/22 some day, just for grins.

Good points! I actually didn't like the extended mag release and am probably going to switch back.

Really?? What didn't you like about it? I hated the stock one; I'll never own a 10/22 with the stock mag release ever again.

Is there a link you could provide for dremeling the bolt release?

Rimfirecentral has a TON of info on modifying 10/22's, and that's where I got the info on the bolt release when I did mine.

www.rimfirecentral.com - go to the 10/22 section, the "action" subsection, and look at the sticky up top. Scroll down on that and you'll find it.

The false about Dwarven's thread on "the truth about the LTR":

Sorry you took it as an attack on you personally; it wasn't. I was just trying to use that post as an example.

I think you misunderstood my thread, and other posts regarding my current 10/22. Maybe you should go back and reread those posts rather than worrying about people that "don't get it" because clearly, you don't. Furthermore, you stood next to my other 10/22 at the Appleseed event at the TVI shoot, why would I build another specifically for Appleseed when that one worked fine?

And in all honesty, since anything really goes for what you can shoot at an Appleseed, pretty sure if I sign up for one I'm gonna bring my AR.

A 10/22 does not simulate a battle rifle, nor will it ever.

I interpreted you saying "I figured, what better than to build a shorter range 10/22, maybe even for Appleseed" to mean that you thought you needed a special rifle for Appleseed, and my contention is that you do not. Sorry if I misconstrued your meaning.

I worry that people are thinking that they need to go build a special 10/22 for an Appleseed Shoot, when they do NOT need to. An LTR merely makes things easier - it's got the same sights as your AR and a similar configuration to many battle rifles (sling, etc) and costs about about a twentieth as much to shoot. I worry that folks won't practice because it's too expensive to buy ammo for the AR, and because they think that they have to spend two to four hundred dollars OVER the cost of the 10/22 for an LTR.

If you can afford to shoot 800 rounds in a weekend from your AR, go for it (many folks cannot)! You'll get a lot out of it, and I'd advise you to go to one of the shoots with the long distance component, like Jericho, VT. You'll really get to test yourself that way.

I build my toys for fun and because I enjoy shooting things I built. Sort of a "wow, I really did some good research on this, what a rifle."

And hey, that's great - I love looking at the cool 10/22s that folks build. Some of them are truly sick (and I mean that in a good way!). They're just more than is needed for an AS.

The Appleseed events are pretty cool, but I certainly wouldn't build a rifle around the theory of only using it to compete in one. I had the opportunity to compete at the one in Athol and decided not to, letting someone else use my rifle to compete that day.

Actually, you didn't. What we had at the TVI shoot in Athol was merely shooting at a Redcoat target and an AQT. An Appleseed Shoot is two days worth of instruction in rifle marksmanship and history. It's not even a competition, unless you count competing against yourself.

Can you use a 4x scope for Appleseed or do they only allow iron sights?

We encourage iron sights, but if you just can't see the target - like certain Dwarves on this board! - go ahead and use a scope.

 

[Nickle]

Can you use a 4x scope for Appleseed or do they only allow iron sights?

I know Dwarven1 has answered this, but, I also want to remove ALL doubt. Seems this constantly comes up. Well, I'm a Master Instructor with the program (there's just 12 of us in the country) and also one of the head people with the program. So, this is straight from the "horse's mouth", and I can tell you Fred himself will say the same thing.

Not only does that certain Dwarf use a scope, so does a certain Appleseed Master Instructor (and he isn;t the only MI using a scope). Sure, I have loaners with Tech Sights, but, I also have scoped loaners, too. Both work, and "the Pimp Gun" is scoped, as my personal 10/22.

Appleseed is pretty much a "run what ya brung" program. If what you bring isn't very suitable for using, we're likely to offer you a loaner .22 that is suitable.

Items that we'll offer you a loaner to use instead of:

Rifle with no sling.

Any .22 with factory sights on the barrel (except Mojo sights or equivalent, which work).

.50 BMG rifle.

Single shot rifles.

Any rifle which won't handily do AQT's (need to do 10 rounds in 55 seconds on one stage).

We also might offer you a loaner if you bring just a centerfire to an event where we'll be shooting a LOT. That's because we don't want to bereak your wallet. You can shoot the centerfire, no problem. We just want to make sure it's because you WANT to, not because you lack a .22.

 

[Bob P]

I haven't been to an Appleseed. I INTEND to make it someday but right now I've got things going on in my life the preclude committing a weekend. God knows my shooting could use the help.

I turned my 10/22 into an LTR for a bunch of reasons, the most being it's a freakin' blast to shoot that way! The tweaks to the trigger, the bolt, the military-style sights just make what's a fun rifle even more fun to shoot.

Also, once you realize how easy it is to mod a 10/22 it gets kind of addictive.

 

[ochmude]

Thanks to a trade I did with hminksy this weekend, I have a brand new 10/22 that came with a set of Tech Sights included. I managed to get those installed yesterday (that front sight is a b!+c# to get off, btw). Just about 5 minutes ago I dropped $82.43 at Midway for the recommended LTR upgrades. Well, I really spent $49.46 on the upgrades and the rest on 3 additional mags. Hopefully I can throw on one of the many M16 slings I "acquired" as a shady LCpl. By next weekend I should be all set with my LTR. Just a matter of finding an Appleseed that jives with my ridiculously hectic schedule.

 

[Squished]

I asked you nicely to remove the misinterpreted quote once.

You then proceed to acknowledge you potentially misinterpreted my post.

You then change the name in your quote to "He Who Shall Not Be Named" with the same quote, essentially mocking me for getting irritated in the first place.

Cut the BS disneyman, please and thank you.

 

[strangenh]

Reusing what you have!

I'll admit to having quite a lot in "my LTR," a 10/22. But that's because when it's not an LTR, a heavy barrel goes onto it and it goes into a different stock whereby it lives as a 100Y target rifle. Maybe I'll eventually get a second receiver, trigger group, bolt, etc. etc., but right now if it happens to be stupid accurate (I doubt it, it has a factory standard sporter barrel on it), that's a plus.

So in real terms, it was inexpensive as it cost me for the Tech-Sights, a factory sporter barrel, a cheap stock (a Ruger youth stock! ), two sling swivels, and a 4-pack of Starbucks Shots to bribe my caffeine-fiend friend with the drill press. I already had all the rest including an appropriate sling.

I've yet to seriously zero it to see how it performs, but overall it cost me considerably less than even setting up a basic 10/22 as an LTR.

 

[Dench]

A 10/22 does not simulate a battle rifle, nor will it ever.

it does in fantasy land.

 

[Sprocket]

Mods I've done to my bone stock 10/22 to date:
Houge over-molded stock - fits better
Zephyr sights
10K round "trigger job"
(done around 1990 when I bought it used)

Recently I took the trigger apart and polished the hammer/trigger components based on a post on rimfire central - nothing fancy just some 180 grit loving followed by some 220 grit. Very light polishing so as not to remove too much material, just smooth out what was there.

I tried to stone the hammer but found the surfaces did not line up like the diagram - rather than risk trashing the hammer, I just let it go.

I also did the bolt hold open treatment and I've found it to be finicky - I suspect I have not put a proper arc on it. Sometimes I'll get a bolt hold open in the middle of a string - somewhat annoying but for now I'll live with it until I can open it up a bit more. If you're worried about doing this one yourself I'll suggest buying the piece so you'll have the stock part on hand if you don't like the performance.

Since then I've had it at the range and found the action very smooth with a crisp let off and a reset like melted butter on lobster - very happy with the results to be sure.

I've been shooting at 50 yards at my range due to lack of having a 25 meter line and target holder - going back and forth forces me to adjust the elevation on the rear sight - this is a pita on the zephyr compared to the appropriate number of clicks with a Tech. I think my next mod will be tech sights.

As for Appleseed shoots - mini or full - I recommend going to one, even as a spectator, to see for yourself what they are about. The challenge of the AQT is very different from the instruction portions. It is very different from making cans dance but still as much fun.

relax, enjoy shooting, repeat

 

[dwarven1]

I tried to stone the hammer but found the surfaces did not line up like the diagram - rather than risk trashing the hammer, I just let it go.

I hear you on THAT one. Just got a beater 10/22 with the hammer just like that - the slot seems to be on an angle. I didn't want to risk it going FA on me, so I'm getting another hammer, and I'll stone that one.