Tense Situation

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So over the weekend I was taking the T going home alone from watching the Superbowl with some friends in Boston. While I am in the train car some drunk chick starts throwing sexual connotations towards me, I just smirk and tell her I am taken. Probably a minute passes before she gets up and approaches me placing her hand on my chest as I didn't notice her approaching because I was staring at my cellphone. I gently take her hand off my chest and tell her in a firm voice that I am not interested and if she could sit back down. This is where things take a wrong turn, apparently her also drunk brother took this the wrong way and screamed at me to not touch his sister. The brother and 4 other guys presumably his friends all get up talking trash to me and starting to close the distance. I'm already standing at this point and although it didn't help the situation I was chuckling a bit at the idiots. As you can probably tell the situation is very tense now and is moving in a violent direction. They are screaming how they are going to kick my a** and head stomp me.

So here I am clearly outnumbered and what looks like a situation where they are going to try to jump me as like I said they were closing the distance and try to rush me. To make the story short the situation got resolved when one of the MBTA workers who was in the same train car as us told the drunk idiots repeatedly to calm down or transit police will be alerted. Now being a ccw holder it got me thinking as I was also carrying that night and was really on edge about what to do during that moment regarding my gun. Since they made their intent very clear would I have been in the wrong lawfully if I had picked up my shirt revealing my gun to possibly deter them? What about a verbal warning that I have a gun? I clearly had no space to retreat being in the train car.

Now worst case scenario what if the gun brandishing didn't work and there was no MBTA worker, could I have drawn my gun and defended myself against them under MASS law if they indeed had rushed me? I know the self defense laws in MASS made by the liberals favor criminals instead of the defenders which is why I am not sure what the law would've allowed me to do and not do. I'm not going to take a chance against 5 guys and get head stomped, what if during the fight I didn't use my gun and one of them grabs ahold of it, my life hangs in their hands then.
 

SERE

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There is a long thread here on NES about carrying on the T. I will try to find it.

However, most of your 'what if questions' could be answered by putting away your phone. Maintain situational awareness and you could have nipped this in the bud. You need work with you gun to develop confidence on when to, or not to, pull your pistol. There are consequences to both.

Start with these NES threads:

Confrontation on the MBTA - Why "Refuse to Be a Victim" is a Valuable Course

Boston Subway carry

Carrying concealed on MBTA question
 
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drgrant

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If your SA was better you could have handled this better without even caring about a gun, etc.

Also this is the definition of violating the 3 s rule... stupid thing (distracted by cell phone) stupid place (mbta right after a superbowl) stupid people (saucers). This is the type of deal where if you were paying attention you would have spotted these shitheads and avoided them. I would have gotten off that f***ing thing at the first stop, bad saucers are easy to pick out. this sounds like it had time to marinate and didn't escalate over 30 seconds.

Also... nobody should ever see your gun in a place like that unless they're about to get shot by it. Again though this really isn't a gun thing.... but producing a gun rarely deescalates anything particularly when dealing with people like that.
 
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Some "interesting" advice in here...

Don't take the T?? Why not tell the OP to just stay home on his panic room and never come out?

"Bad saucers" are easy to spot? What, are we to assume that everyone in a Pats jersey is about to pick a fight? Because again, might as well never leave your house.

Don't look at your phone? Maybe the OP was checking when his next train arrives or reading a text from a sick relative. We have no idea.

OP - that's a bad situation all around. I think that in that situation I'd apologize profusely, call 911, and get off at the next stop. Flashing your gun is a bad idea but if the suckers rush you I say start shooting and find a really good lawyer afterwards because MA courts will make you bleed. IANAL.
 

Waher

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Next time get off the train and change cars. Never flash your gun, it escalates the situation and you will lose in courts or a suitability revocation.

Where are you? What lies behind your target? Confined space (permanent hearing damage to you and others). Hundreds of innocent bystanders if you miss or a round over-penetrates. You absolutely cannot present or use a firearm in that situation unless it's overwhelming clear in a court of law you were otherwise going to die and even then might face civil suits from bystanders.

A taser or pepper spray might be better in that shit situation. But it's best to avoid it in the first place. Change cars next time. Don't laugh or react. Just back away.

Also no one in MA is CCW holder it's a LTC. Bit odd to call it that.
 

McReef

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Everyone finds themselves in unexpected situations. Shit happens.

So it looks like the “don’ts” have been covered. What happens if you cant back away? Accept a beating or worse (and potentially lose your weapon), or defend yourself? Let’s stipulate the hands up appogizing doesn't do the trick for the sake of the exercise...
 

DarthRevan

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I’ll play along. IANAL, but in a situation like that, just get off the car and wait for the next one. Had they advanced further and without means of getting off the train, I wouldn’t flash it but my hand would be on it.
But in my head I’m a lot more confident than I probably would be irl.
YMMV
 

Hetzer

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swatgig

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Lifting your shirt to show your gun is assault with a deadly weapon.

The first indication they should have that you have a gun should be the muzzle flash.

My first criminal client was a guy charged with ADW for pulling his gun to de-escalate a situation. Other guy wasn’t charged.
 

Woodsy

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So over the weekend I was taking the T going home alone from watching the Superbowl with some friends in Boston. While I am in the train car some drunk chick starts throwing sexual connotations towards me, I just smirk and tell her I am taken. Probably a minute passes before she gets up and approaches me placing her hand on my chest as I didn't notice her approaching because I was staring at my cellphone. I gently take her hand off my chest and tell her in a firm voice that I am not interested and if she could sit back down. This is where things take a wrong turn, apparently her also drunk brother took this the wrong way and screamed at me to not touch his sister. The brother and 4 other guys presumably his friends all get up talking trash to me and starting to close the distance. I'm already standing at this point and although it didn't help the situation I was chuckling a bit at the idiots. As you can probably tell the situation is very tense now and is moving in a violent direction. They are screaming how they are going to kick my a** and head stomp me.

So here I am clearly outnumbered and what looks like a situation where they are going to try to jump me as like I said they were closing the distance and try to rush me. To make the story short the situation got resolved when one of the MBTA workers who was in the same train car as us told the drunk idiots repeatedly to calm down or transit police will be alerted. Now being a ccw holder it got me thinking as I was also carrying that night and was really on edge about what to do during that moment regarding my gun. Since they made their intent very clear would I have been in the wrong lawfully if I had picked up my shirt revealing my gun to possibly deter them? What about a verbal warning that I have a gun? I clearly had no space to retreat being in the train car.

Now worst case scenario what if the gun brandishing didn't work and there was no MBTA worker, could I have drawn my gun and defended myself against them under MASS law if they indeed had rushed me? I know the self defense laws in MASS made by the liberals favor criminals instead of the defenders which is why I am not sure what the law would've allowed me to do and not do. I'm not going to take a chance against 5 guys and get head stomped, what if during the fight I didn't use my gun and one of them grabs ahold of it, my life hangs in their hands then.
Get up and move to another car is an option. Been on many a trainfromtje Bruins and Sox and have run into situations where shit started to escalate, knowing I’d push came to shove I was going to survive (a cc holder as well). I bailed to another car and other times moved a few seats. A few times had to stand up and just push back a little. Drunk groups are tough because they exhibit zero common sense so you almost have to use Drunk Sense. Glad it worked out for you and not sure there’s a one right answer.
 

Hetzer

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Some "interesting" advice in here...

Don't take the T?? Why not tell the OP to just stay home on his panic room and never come out?

"Bad saucers" are easy to spot? What, are we to assume that everyone in a Pats jersey is about to pick a fight? Because again, might as well never leave your house.

Don't look at your phone? Maybe the OP was checking when his next train arrives or reading a text from a sick relative. We have no idea.

OP - that's a bad situation all around. I think that in that situation I'd apologize profusely, call 911, and get off at the next stop. Flashing your gun is a bad idea but if the suckers rush you I say start shooting and find a really good lawyer afterwards because MA courts will make you bleed. IANAL.
Over a million people take the T daily with no issues, I'm not telling him to stay home but I think we can all agree that riding public transportation right after a Pats Super Bowl win didn't work out great for him.
 

Dip Dungles

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I'm old enough now that it doesn't bother me to deescalate, disengage and retreat. I have no ego in it any more.
This. In my younger years I wouldn't want to back down due to being young, dumb and full of ..., but that shit wears off real quick when you've got more to lose and experience under your belt. Always try to deescalate the situation and be the bigger/better person. Do you want to go home or do you want to go to jail?
 

drgrant

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Some "interesting" advice in here...

Don't take the T?? Why not tell the OP to just stay home on his panic room and never come out?

"Bad saucers" are easy to spot? What, are we to assume that everyone in a Pats jersey is about to pick a fight? Because again, might as well never leave your house.

Don't look at your phone? Maybe the OP was checking when his next train arrives or reading a text from a sick relative. We have no idea.

OP - that's a bad situation all around. I think that in that situation I'd apologize profusely, call 911, and get off at the next stop. Flashing your gun is a bad idea but if the suckers rush you I say start shooting and find a really good lawyer afterwards because MA courts will make you bleed. IANAL.
I just said what I said because the whole thing reads as "easily avoidable", it's not "don't ride the T" it is about keeping your guard up under certain circumstances. This has "SA failure" written all over it with a bow, the three Ses just end up being the frosting that confirm it. Also there's a difference between drunk people and f***ed up drunk people, the latter show themselves pretty readily, and they're not worth being around.
 

snax

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How many people were on this train? Boston was mobbed after the SB.
Was there anybody else?
What time of night was this?
Which train were you on to where?

Doesn't smell right. This sounds fake, if not, sounds like these guys were setting you up for a beat down and robbing. U have the newest iPhone on you?
 

Talon3

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I'm thinking the girl was a setup. She comes on to a mark, gets him all worked up, then gets him to get off at a stop. Where the crew of men can then jump the victim from behind. Since option 1 was rejected ooriok 2 was in play, just threaten into submission and or beat down by group.
The T requires upmost situational awareness at all times. I try to not touch the phone while on T property. It's like walking around with your wallet out in the open.
 

richc

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Well said. There's so much potential downside to a situation like this that we don't realize when ego is engaged.

I'm old enough now that it doesn't bother me to deescalate, disengage and retreat. I have no ego in it any more.
 

daekken

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As I see it, you have two options. Remember IANAL.

1.) If you wear one of these you won't need to show your gun, they'll just leave you alone.


2.) My preferred method: fire a warning shot. That usually calms everyone down and you can get on with more rational conversation.

;)
 
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If your SA was better you could have handled this better without even caring about a gun, etc.

Also this is the definition of violating the 3 s rule... stupid thing (distracted by cell phone) stupid place (mbta right after a superbowl) stupid people (saucers). This is the type of deal where if you were paying attention you would have spotted these shitheads and avoided them. I would have gotten off that f***ing thing at the first stop, bad saucers are easy to pick out. this sounds like it had time to marinate and didn't escalate over 30 seconds.

Also... nobody should ever see your gun in a place like that unless they're about to get shot by it. Again though this really isn't a gun thing.... but producing a gun rarely deescalates anything particularly when dealing with people like that.
Your right I showed have focused on SA, I just didn't think it would result to a situation like that. I took the the T cause my car was in Quincy Adams and I didn't want to pay for parking especially on Superbowl night plus I regularly take the T to get to work anyway. this was the red line btw. The encounter with the girl like I said lasted around a minute I didn't pay much attention to it because it was harmless situation of some drunk chick hitting on me but with the guys it lasted probably around 30 seconds or so, with the guys it got heated pretty fast and the next stop was north Quincy we were still over the bridge at that moment so I couldn't get off by that point, so I was backed up with no escape route.
 
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Next time get off the train and change cars. Never flash your gun, it escalates the situation and you will lose in courts or a suitability revocation.

Where are you? What lies behind your target? Confined space (permanent hearing damage to you and others). Hundreds of innocent bystanders if you miss or a round over-penetrates. You absolutely cannot present or use a firearm in that situation unless it's overwhelming clear in a court of law you were otherwise going to die and even then might face civil suits from bystanders.

A taser or pepper spray might be better in that shit situation. But it's best to avoid it in the first place. Change cars next time. Don't laugh or react. Just back away.

Also no one in MA is CCW holder it's a LTC. Bit odd to call it that.
I was in the train car on the red line, the car was semi packed, I was definitely thinking about the backstop. Adrenaline was just pumping through me as I was thinking what can I do about the gun I didn't want them to overrun me and take control of my firearm as I stated the situation was surely going to get physical if the MBTA worker wasn't there. I don't care what anyone says you will lose a physical fight alone against 5 guys especially in a confined space like that. BTW I say ccw because I was raised down south that's what we say, I only heard LTC when I moved up here, down in Florida where I used to live we have stand your ground law but as I know it here in MA you have to retreat if possible, the problem was of course I couldn't at that exact point .
 
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