Stupid Primer question & a Dillon 550...

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Dave_W

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Hi,

So far I've only reloaded pistol cartridges and used small and large primers.

I'm getting ready to set up a new tool head for 7.62 x 54R and I was thinking about primers.

Is there a difference (diameter/height) in size between large pistol & large rifle primers?

I've looked at my primer pickup tubes and the 2 small tubes & 2 large tubes I have seem to be the same size.

So, If I'm going from large pistol to large rifle, do I need to change the pickup tube or the feed tube inside the 550 itself.

Thanks.

David
 
You can use the same feed tube for large rifle and large pistol primers.

The diameter is the same for large pistol and large rifle primers, but the large rifle primers are taller. They should never be interchanged.

Small pistol and small rifle primers are the same diameter and close enough in height so that they can (sometimes) be safely interchanged with a small reduction in charge when a small rifle primer is used in place of a small pistol primer.
 
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Yes! If you have reloadable brass (which I do, about 600 rounds worth), then a bullet costs $23.00 per hundred, or .23 each (OK, that's already more than you are saying it costs.....) powder is about six cents, and a primer is 2 cents.

So, for $.31 I get a custom loaded round for my Mosin, and can do that as many times (as long as I trim length) as I want.

And, I have brass going into my chamber instead of steel.

AND, I don't have to worry about your cheap ass $.20 cent CORROSIVE rounds. Those will reduce your barrel to junk almost over night if you don't clean well after shooting.

Larry Legend said:
Off hand question.

Is it even financially sensible to reload 7.62x54r when you can buy surply rounds for >$0.20 per round?
Click to expand...
 
Larry Legend said:
Is it even financially sensible to reload 7.62x54r when you can buy surply rounds for >$0.20 per round?
Click to expand...

DukeInMaine said:
Yes! If you have reloadable brass (which I do, about 600 rounds worth), then a bullet costs $23.00 per hundred, or .23 each (OK, that's already more than you are saying it costs.....) powder is about six cents, and a primer is 2 cents.

So, for $.31 I get a custom loaded round for my Mosin, and can do that as many times (as long as I trim length) as I want.

And, I have brass going into my chamber instead of steel.

AND, I don't have to worry about your cheap ass $.20 cent CORROSIVE rounds. Those will reduce your barrel to junk almost over night if you don't clean well after shooting.
Click to expand...

So the answer is NO [wink].

Take the $.11 per round you're saving and buy another Mosin or a funnel and some hot water. [smile]
 
DukeInMaine said:
Yes! If you have reloadable brass (which I do, about 600 rounds worth), then a bullet costs $23.00 per hundred, or .23 each (OK, that's already more than you are saying it costs.....) powder is about six cents, and a primer is 2 cents.

So, for $.31 I get a custom loaded round for my Mosin, and can do that as many times (as long as I trim length) as I want.

And, I have brass going into my chamber instead of steel.

AND, I don't have to worry about your cheap ass $.20 cent CORROSIVE rounds. Those will reduce your barrel to junk almost over night if you don't clean well after shooting.
Click to expand...


I understand your points, but I don't think they translate well to a $80 rifle that isn't designed to be a precision shooter (AFAIK). I would understand if you were making custom loads for your Winchester hunting rifle, or for something you shoot in competition, or even for my K31 (~$0.50 per round).

And as far as the corrosive part, I assume you clean your rifles after shooting right? If yes then simply run a few patches of windex through the gun BEFORE leaving the range. Then clean fully when you get home.


But then again, I am not you, you are not me. Agree to disagree. Plus, since you have the brass, you might as well put it to use.
 
Larry Legend said:
I understand your points, but I don't think they translate well to a $80 rifle that isn't designed to be a precision shooter (AFAIK). I would understand if you were making custom loads for your Winchester hunting rifle, or for something you shoot in competition, or even for my K31 (~$0.50 per round).

And as far as the corrosive part, I assume you clean your rifles after shooting right? If yes then simply run a few patches of windex through the gun BEFORE leaving the range. Then clean fully when you get home.


But then again, I am not you, you are not me. Agree to disagree. Plus, since you have the brass, you might as well put it to use.
Click to expand...

Every rifle I've ever reloaded for had improved accuracy with reloads. It depends what is important to YOU. I happen to enjoy reloading very much and get a real kick out of attaining the greatest accuracy I can out of each gun. Many of my rifles and pistols have NEVER seen a factory round. And yes, the diameters of both large rifle and large pistol primers are the same.

Bob
 
No, that wasn't what I meant.

The cheap ass ammo uses corrosive primers, and the chemicals that the corrosive residue leaves behind can turn your $80 rifle to mush overnight.

Larry Legend said:
I understand your points, but I don't think they translate well to a $80 rifle that isn't designed to be a precision shooter (AFAIK). I would understand if you were making custom loads for your Winchester hunting rifle, or for something you shoot in competition, or even for my K31 (~$0.50 per round).

And as far as the corrosive part, I assume you clean your rifles after shooting right? If yes then simply run a few patches of windex through the gun BEFORE leaving the range. Then clean fully when you get home.


But then again, I am not you, you are not me. Agree to disagree. Plus, since you have the brass, you might as well put it to use.
Click to expand...
 
Stick with rifle primers for rifles and pistol for pistol. There's a difference. Mosin's can shoot well. If you want to reload for it, do it. Can be very satisfying to wring accuracy out of an $80 dollar rifle, realize you got a deal on a real hammer of a gun.

Tom
 
DukeInMaine said:
No, that wasn't what I meant.

The cheap ass ammo uses corrosive primers, and the chemicals that the corrosive residue leaves behind can turn your $80 rifle to mush overnight.
Click to expand...



I understand. My standpoint is: If it worked for the slack-jawed Commies for so long, it can work for me.

At least, thats how I currently feel.
 
Hi, EC! Thanks for the clarification.

The cost also goes down when you cast your own bullets.

Also, a lot of the surplus I have is .308. My bore is slugged at .311, so I'm hoping for better accuracy.

Lastly, maybe the Mosin won't kick like an angry mule. ;)

David

ps: here in MA it's a PITA to get ammo. I'd love to be able to shop around and get a case shipped. It ain't happening for me.
 
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Dave_W said:
My bore is slugged at .311, so I'm hoping for better accuracy.

Lastly, maybe the Mosin won't kick like an angry mule.
Click to expand...

I keep suggesting the following to many local Mosin Nagant shooters, but I think they thrive on the "he-man" recoil and flame front...
Use the 130 grain Lyman 311410 (my mould drops them at about 0.3135") sized accordingly with 9.0 grains of Trail Boss or ~12 grains of Red Dot and get some easy plinking loads for little money. If you want something stouter, try a heavier gas-checked bullet, such as the Lyman 314299
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-rifles.php?entryID=55
 
Larry legend, see..... There's more than the cost of the ammo that is a consideration to reloading for the Mosin.

The ability to adjust the kick factor

The ability to make FREE bullets (the biggest cost for the round)...

When casting your own bullets for this gun, you can then reload for far cheaper than any slack jaw commie ammo that you can buy on sale anywhere.

Dave, what lube are you using with that cast bullet?
 
Corrosive ammo really isn't that evil. It's not like the munitions equivalent of drinking from a fake Grail, causing your barrel to suddenly melt right off of the stock.
 
Hi Dave,
Know you were asking Duke but thought I would jump in...... There are many variables here that can make a difference so I apologize in advance for the long winded response...

First, directly to your post, my experience and understanding has been that tumble lube is primarily for low velocity pistol rounds..... I would be very suspect that they would work in a rifle without leading.... The only way to be sure is to try it but I would check for leading after your first few rounds and bring a copper chore boy and cleaning rod just in case.... Bullet lube is designed to cut friction as the bullet travels the barrel length.... The lube burns away and the problem if you have one will be that in a rifle (long barrel vs short pistol barrel) you might run out of lube before the bullet exits the barrel. To prevent this I typically lube with a good hard lube.... If you don't want to spring for a sizer, you can pan lube.... Google is your friend here.....

If this is the case (bullet running out of lube) you will find leading particularly near the muzzle. Leading is not the end of the world and usually will come out pretty cleanly with a few swipes with the chore boy wrapped around the end of the cleaning rod....

Ok, with that out of the way here we go....

Size matters for cast bullets.... Typically you want to be .001 to .002 over the bore size to get the best results in both accuracy and minimal leading. Given that, small is bad in that undersized cast bullets will almost always lead, usually right off the bat with lead along the entire length of the barrel... To be sure where you stand here you need to slug the bore and know the size of your bullets.... You also need to be careful when you load that you do not reduce the diameter of the bullet. Lyman M dies are specially designed for cast bullets and are recommended to properly expand the brass to accept the bullet (instead of the usual flare). Also, well chamfered brass (to prevent shaving lead from the bullet) and a careful (or no) crimp (particularly for softer alloys) also go a long way to keep your bullet diameter from being reduced.... Oversized bullets (>.002 over bore) should be ok with less chance of whole bore leading but accuracy might not be great....

Bullet hardness matters.... Harder bullets as a general rule can be pushed faster without the chance of significant leading.... Gas checks are typically needed for 1400fps + and for those times when you want to shoot a softer alloy accurately without leading (hunting rounds, hollow points etc). The general consensus is that shooting a gas check bullet without a gas check will increase your chance of leading but there are many opinions and I personally have not tried it....

Bore condition matters.... Any roughness will lead due to the increased friction.... With a Milsup or any gun which has historically shot jacketed, you need to be sure to remove all traces of copper fouling before you switch over to shooting lead.... Typical bullet alloys are antimony, lead and tin which can approximate (except for antimony) the composition of solder.... Solder really likes to bond to copper and will make subsequent leading more difficult to remove..... In any case, a copper chore boy and a cleaning rod mixed with liberal amounts of elbow grease will usually do the trick...... Long term fixes involve firelapping (see Marcus5Aurelius post on the subject if ?).

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...ge-10FP-Results-Post-18?highlight=firelapping

Militec 1 might also help as it seems to seal the metal surface (reduces friction) after the barrel has been well cleaned.....

Lastly, the powder matters.... Cast bullets don't respond well to fast powders.... They typically like close to full case loads of slower powder (bullseye, unique, H110 etc)..... If there are any questions on your load then you should consult the Lyman Cast Bullets manual.... There are others but this is the best reference for cast bullet loads (they are different than jacketed loads) that I have found yet.....

Hope this helps





Dave_W said:
Hi Duke,

I'm planning on trying the Lee Tumble Lube. Do you foresee any issues?

David
Click to expand...
 
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Hi Bob,

I'm looking at trying Trailboss powder because it's bulky so it should fill up about 75% of the case. I did slug the bore and it's a .311, and my cast bullets are .312.

I did read a suggestion somewhere that I should tumble lube them twice, so thats the plan.

Thanks for the info.

David
 
Hi Dave,
Trailboss should be fine and your size looks ok.....

As for the tumble lube all I can say is give it a try and see.... Leading is a PITA but by itself will not do any permanent damage to your gun as long as you catch it fairly early....

Let us know your results and we can go from there.....[wink]
 
Dave, Bob said it all, and said it very well. I like tumble lube (Lee version is called, Alox. But I prefer the cheaper, White Label version, called, "Xlox") for slower pistol rounds. It's how I buy my molds for pistol. With the tumble lube microgrooves.

You can't expect that the thin lube will last for a 16" barrel, though. So, for the rifle bullets, you really need a harder lube, and those need to get applied either with a lubricizer, or by using the pan method (silicone baking pan... stand up the bullets..... melt the lube..... pour into the pan until the level comes up to the grease grooves... let harden ... pull the bullets straight out, Voila! Grease in the grease grooves. )

I have lubricized micro grooves with hard lube, and then coated the entire structure with Xlox, and that has worked better than just the Xlox. If you're going to get into the casting in any big way, you'll need to get a lubricizer anyways. Get the heater to go with it. Some of the lubes will work OK at room temp, but to do it right, you might want to explore some of the harder lubes, and those need heat to flow the lube properly into the grease grooves.
 
Morning Duke.....[grin]

Thought I would post the link to the White Label guys..... Great bullet lubes at a great price.... Their normal web page seems to be hijacked but they have an order sheet as well as good discussion on this thread...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=56454

This is the silicone bakeware I use to pan lube:

http://www.amazon.com/Wilton-Easy-F...3?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1267798717&sr=8-3

Silicone is great since the lube likes to stick to stuff.... Good for bullets and bad if you are trying to get the lube cake out intact....[wink]

Dave, like Duke said, pan lubing in a cinch and very cheap if you don't want/need to size... I'm going to add a bit more detail just in case you want to try it...

To do this you need:


  • Silicone baking pan
  • Pot to melt the lube in
  • baking sheet
  • An oven big enough to take the silicone pan and baking sheet
  • Hard lube to fill the silicone pan enough to cover the top lube groove
  • An unsized brass case, well chamfered

Place the silicone pan on a flat baking sheet (to support it since it is very flexible)

Stand all your bullets up in the pan, leaving a clear space to pour in the lube

Place the silicone pan (on the flat baking sheet) and your bullets in the oven and preheat. Doesn't need to be a lot, 200F should be plenty.

As you are preheating your bullets, melt your lube (low heat or double boiler) in another pan

Remove the silicone baking pan with your bullets from the oven and pour in the lube until it is enough to cover the top lube groove of the bullets. Place back in the oven for a few minutes to make sure the lube flows well into the grooves.

Remove and let cool.

Remove the lube cake with your bullets from the silicone pan. Flip it over and you will see the bases of all your bullets.

Use the chamfered brass to cut the bullets from the lube cake. Some folks just use their fingers to push the bullets out but I have found that particularly for the smaller rounds the brass works better (Yes, I do have fat fingers)....

Leave the lube cake intact as it will make your next batch easier since now you can place the bullets directly in the holes left and simply reheat in the oven until the lube is liquid again.

As my kids say, easy peasy......[wink]


DukeInMaine said:
Dave, Bob said it all, and said it very well. I like tumble lube (Lee version is called, Alox. But I prefer the cheaper, White Label version, called, "Xlox") for slower pistol rounds. It's how I buy my molds for pistol. With the tumble lube microgrooves.

You can't expect that the thin lube will last for a 16" barrel, though. So, for the rifle bullets, you really need a harder lube, and those need to get applied either with a lubricizer, or by using the pan method (silicone baking pan... stand up the bullets..... melt the lube..... pour into the pan until the level comes up to the grease grooves... let harden ... pull the bullets straight out, Voila! Grease in the grease grooves. )

I have lubricized micro grooves with hard lube, and then coated the entire structure with Xlox, and that has worked better than just the Xlox. If you're going to get into the casting in any big way, you'll need to get a lubricizer anyways. Get the heater to go with it. Some of the lubes will work OK at room temp, but to do it right, you might want to explore some of the harder lubes, and those need heat to flow the lube properly into the grease grooves.
Click to expand...
 
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Hi David,
I buy commercial but from the White Label guys mentioned in the previous post.... Their Carnauba Red is very well respected on the cast boolits site and is rated to something like 2700 fps IIRC.... Also is very reasonably priced.... I wanted a lube I could use for everything and not have to worry about no matter what I was loading....[wink]



Dave_W said:
Hi Bob,

Sounds good. Do you have a magic formula for your lube or do you use something commercial?

David
Click to expand...
 
pistol primers have a thinner cup than rifle do. If you use small pistol in place of small rifle you run the risk of a blown primer in a high pressure round, such as 5.56. Not advisable. Use rifle for rifle and pistol for pistol. Not worth the risk for a $2 box of primers. There was a write up on it in guns magazine a few months ago I believe.
 

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