Steel .223 Short Stroking Despite Higher Velocity

[92G]

Probably the coating they put on the steel cases was gumming up your chamber causing the issues.

^^this

in my experience tula .223 looks like an elephant ejaculated just prior to packaging.

I also dont shoot steel cased ammo through any semi auto rifle...well except my mini 14 because its a tank.
brass cases behave like little cushions for the entire rifle...steel not so much.
i save my steel ammo for my bolt actions which i shoot more of anyway.
just my 2c

 

[92G]

I am not impressed with froglube.

People use it incorrectly. I like froglube but too much work to do it properly.
i put ballistol on freaking everything....amazing stuff.

 

[mac1911]

^^this

in my experience tula .223 looks like an elephant ejaculated just prior to packaging.

I also dont shoot steel cased ammo through any semi auto rifle...well except my mini 14 because its a tank.
brass cases behave like little cushions for the entire rifle...steel not so much.
i save my steel ammo for my bolt actions which i shoot more of anyway.
just my 2c

I am very doubtful the chambers temp gets even close to melting the polymer coating on the steel cases.
The case of your Ruger it should experience the same issues as a AR I dont think the chambers are any different or run at a different temp.

Your right that the brass and steel will react differently. The steel case does not expand as much as the brass in the chamber when fired... this was on the wolf web site at some point? so you get a bit more carbon fouling deeper ito the chamber. so when you switch back to brass a brass case can get stuck...
I would think shooting steel cased in a bolt action would have the same issues. It would just require more time to for the carbon to build up.

There are several machine gun owners at my club that piss through steel cased ammo. I would think if steel cased ammo jams because of melting polymer these guys would know and not use it.

Tula is loaded on the low side compared to 5.56 and even wolf mil clasic.
so if your running a heavier buffer especially in a carbine it might be a issue.
Good thing about wolf is they will refund your money if your not happy.
I have done it 2 times so far. each had a return label shipped with my refund in less than 4 weeks.

 

[dgrafton]

Your right that the brass and steel will react differently. The steel case does not expand as much as the brass in the chamber when fired... this was on the wolf web site at some point? so you get a bit more carbon fouling deeper ito the chamber. so when you switch back to brass a brass case can get stuck...

I thought it was that when steel cases expanded under pressure, they were less elastic when the pressure subsided?


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[mac1911]

I thought it was that when steel cases expanded under pressure, they were less elastic when the pressure subsided?


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yup that too, got love it who knows really

 

[dgrafton]

Yeah, wasn't doubting, just trying to figure it out also. Never had any issues in my AR, but someone (drgrant maybe?) posted before about issues during a high volume class. Haven't shot those volumes in a short timeframe so no personal experience with that issue.


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[drgrant]

Yeah, wasn't doubting, just trying to figure it out also. Never had any issues in my AR, but someone (drgrant maybe?) posted before about issues during a high volume class. Haven't shot those volumes in a short timeframe so no personal experience with that issue.

I think that was dcmdon but he's not the only person I've had tell me that they had issues switching from one to the other.

-Mike

 

[dgrafton]

Sorry about that. Knew the username began with a D and it was you or him.


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[xtry51]

I've run ~3,000 rounds of Wolf over a three day period through my main rifle. I had one double feed that was a faulty mag. If your rifle won't shoot steel or low quality brass you need to fix your damn rifle because its not functioning correctly. Also clean your rifle every 1k rounds and lube it every time you use it.

I frequently shoot steel and brass through my rifle in the same session. I've not had an issue. Atilla and I are notorious for running 3-5 different brands/reloads through our rifles in single sessions. No malfunctions. FIX YOUR GUN.

 

[mac1911]

I've run ~3,000 rounds of Wolf over a three day period through my main rifle. I had one double feed that was a faulty mag. If your rifle won't shoot steel or low quality brass you need to fix your damn rifle because its not functioning correctly. Also clean your rifle every 1k rounds and lube it every time you use it.

I frequently shoot steel and brass through my rifle in the same session. I've not had an issue. Atilla and I are notorious for running 3-5 different brands/reloads through our rifles in single sessions. No malfunctions. FIX YOUR GUN.

I was told the same thing by a ret. Marine.
I also think there are a lot of AR owners who hear the term "run them wet " include the chamber. Chamber should be dry before you start shooting.
There's issues I'm sure with some ammo. The most problematic poor accuracy and missfires along with rims failing at extraction UMC!
What is the most popular ammo in 3 gun?

 

[Colt Delta Elite]

I've run ~3,000 rounds of Wolf over a three day period through my main rifle. I had one double feed that was a faulty mag. If your rifle won't shoot steel or low quality brass you need to fix your damn rifle because its not functioning correctly. Also clean your rifle every 1k rounds and lube it every time you use it. I frequently shoot steel and brass through my rifle in the same session. I've not had an issue. Atilla and I are notorious for running 3-5 different brands/reloads through our rifles in single sessions. No malfunctions. FIX YOUR GUN.

.

This is the answer plain and simple. Your gun should shoot it all flawlessly.

 

[exo]

I had always heard that if you're going to switch between shooting steel and brass, that before going back to brass you should give the chamber a quick cleaning.

 

[SubieGuy4]

Update...

I've shot another 400 rounds of steel with no malfunctions now. Seems it was just a break in issue. I switch back and forth between brass and steel with no problems (there's no valid reason why this should be a problem). I still won't be getting any more steel as it wears barrels faster and I'm fine with spending a little more for more barrel life.

Based on what I've observed, the reason the hotter steel ammo was initially short stroking the gun was that cycling pressure is somehow lower (lower pressure at gas port compared to the powder used in brass cased ammo) and with a brand new gun the higher action resistance (surfaces not worn smooth yet) probably caused short stroking.

The polymer coating doesn't melt at chamber pressures despite the myths and stuck cases happen because steel doesn't expand when fired and so more carbon builds up in the chamber. I don't think the extra chamber fouling has anything to do with my previous short stroking issue because I had only fired a handful of rounds prior to switching to steel and getting malfunctions. Only logical conclusion is that the powder used has a different burn rate that leads to more velocity but lower pressure at the gas port.

 

[dgrafton]

Thanks for updating.

I am having a hard time thinking this through, been a long day, so maybe someone can chime in. If the velocity is higher, that would make the dwell time shorter. Could a shorter dwell time have cycling issues with a heavier buffer?

I can't remember if you posted what weight buffer or length gas system you have.


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[SubieGuy4]

Thanks for updating.

I am having a hard time thinking this through, been a long day, so maybe someone can chime in. If the velocity is higher, that would make the dwell time shorter. Could a shorter dwell time have cycling issues with a heavier buffer?

I can't remember if you posted what weight buffer or length gas system you have.

Sure could by my understanding. I'm using an H buffer and it's a mid-length gas system. What doesn't really follow about that is that my 5.56 brass is faster still by a significant margin, so you'd think dwell time would be even shorter there and would exacerbate the issue, but it's not had a hiccup once in 1000 rounds of brass, be it hotter or not.

 

[92G]

I have had no bad experience w steel cased 223 in any rifle.
my preferences for brass stem exclusively on my belief that brass is potentially easier on my beloved rifles.
the bastard rifles eat mostly steel.
conclusion: i am an unfair gun owner

 

[mac1911]

Update...

I've shot another 400 rounds of steel with no malfunctions now. Seems it was just a break in issue. I switch back and forth between brass and steel with no problems (there's no valid reason why this should be a problem). I still won't be getting any more steel as it wears barrels faster and I'm fine with spending a little more for more barrel life.

Based on what I've observed, the reason the hotter steel ammo was initially short stroking the gun was that cycling pressure is somehow lower (lower pressure at gas port compared to the powder used in brass cased ammo) and with a brand new gun the higher action resistance (surfaces not worn smooth yet) probably caused short stroking.

The polymer coating doesn't melt at chamber pressures despite the myths and stuck cases happen because steel doesn't expand when fired and so more carbon builds up in the chamber. I don't think the extra chamber fouling has anything to do with my previous short stroking issue because I had only fired a handful of rounds prior to switching to steel and getting malfunctions. Only logical conclusion is that the powder used has a different burn rate that leads to more velocity but lower pressure at the gas port.

How much more barrel life do you think you can get shooting just brass cased ammo?
What's the current price differential between steel cased and brass cased ammo?
Have you compared accuracy between the steel cased ammo and brass 5.56

I just have a hard time thinking its worth the extra money to save extending the later part of your barrel life by a small margin this of course is if you intend to shoot your rifle until it is worn out. If you plan on only useing this rifle a few times a year and want a level of accuracy to be maintained then quality brass match ammo would be best.
A quick look around and it looks like there's about a 14 cent difference between brass and steel, excluding match ammo.
So if you shoot 5k rounds of steel and your barrel is ready to be replaced you would have saved 700$ vs buying brass. Now maybe you can squeeze 8k rounds of brass through your ar before accuracy drops. What are you really saving?
I only have 3 ARs left.
my service rifle which is fed 75gn match ammo and only sees about 400 rnds per yr....I don't get to matches often.
My "varmint" gun which only sees brass reloads because I can reload decent ammo that shoots better than steel for less.
Then there's my regular milspec A2. Unless I put it on a rifle rest its hard to tell any difference in accuracy between wolf/tula/bear and m195 m855 labeled ammo and the less expensive brass.
Have fun and shoot it....what ever it is!

 

[TheCrowing]

Funny that I just found this thread. I brought my 20" A2 build that I just finished to the range for the first time last weekend. Put about 100rds of M855 brass through it flawlessly. Then I loaded a stray box of Silver Bear .223 that failed to cycle after every shot. I made it through 3 rounds before I unloaded the mag and said **** it.

I'm gonna run it through my carbine that eats steel case ammo like it was nothing as well as try and run some Tula or other brand steel through my new rifle.

Still not sure if the new gun is picky, not broken in yet or if the Silver Bear is underpowered for a rifle length gas system.

 

[Dnotarianni]

If you got an AR set up to snip with then you can be ammo fussy but for a everyday shooter it better feed anything including rocks because when the SHTF any mag on the ground better work with whatever is inside it in your rifle!

Dave