Quicken Willmaker for making a trust

[drumenigma]

So I am looking to make a trust for various purposes one of which is to utilize in the acquisition of certain NFA items. I am wondering if anyone on this forum has used the software to create a trust for either the same purpose or another? I'd like to know how easy or hard it was to make the document with the software. Also a general cost after everything was said and done including the software. I am getting the software for $40 and I know I will have to get a notary on the document which I do not know the cost of. And if you happen to know any other miscellaneous costs like if it has to be filed with the state for a fee or anything like that.

If anyone else is looking to take the same route Nolo.com has it on sale right now. They also include a handy little legal book for advice on various things.

Just to add I do deal with trusts almost daily through my work (financial institution) so I am familiar with the structure and function of the document. I probably wouldn't feel as comfortable going the software route if I didn't already have the exposure.

 

[RKG]

Using computer software to draft legal instruments, such as an indenture of trust, is about as likely to make you happy and as likely to yield some very unfortunate results, as blasting blindly out your window on a dark night.

Both amount to asking for trouble, big time.

 

[doobie]

Bit problem I have with the Quicken Willmaker is not really know who is the best person for a co-trustee/etc that you need to include on it. It doesn't allow the co-trustee to be a beneficiary. It's also not setup to easily let you create a trust called 'drumenigma RKBA' if you so desired something other than your name as the name of the trust.

 

[jdubois]

Using computer software to draft legal instruments, such as an indenture of trust, is about as likely to make you happy and as likely to yield some very unfortunate results, as blasting blindly out your window on a dark night.

When I saw the title for this thread, I thought, "Hmm, I seem to remember RKG being slightly down on legal DIY software". I guess I remembered correctly.

 

[EasyD]

Using computer software to draft legal instruments, such as an indenture of trust, is about as likely to make you happy and as likely to yield some very unfortunate results, as blasting blindly out your window on a dark night.

Both amount to asking for trouble, big time.

+1

I've seen a few of the trusts that come out of Willmaker and Suze Ormond's and they worry me, and I'm not a lawyer!

People need to solidly understand the gravity of creating a trust, especially to hold NFA items, before signing away.

--EasyD

 

[RKG]

When I saw the title for this thread, I thought, "Hmm, I seem to remember RKG being slightly down on legal DIY software". I guess I remembered correctly.

Subtle, no?

 

[RKG]

Bit problem I have with the Quicken Willmaker is not really know who is the best person for a co-trustee/etc that you need to include on it. It doesn't allow the co-trustee to be a beneficiary. It's also not setup to easily let you create a trust called 'drumenigma RKBA' if you so desired something other than your name as the name of the trust.

I hate to be pedantic (though, perhaps, I do not hate it enough not to do it), but you prove my point:

1) If your software "requires" a co-trustee, it is defective from the gate, as there is nothing in Massachusetts law that requires every inter vivos trust to have a co-trustee. And while the law of every state is different on the general subject of inter vivos trusts (another problem that generic software doesn't address), I'm not aware of any jusisdiction that requires a co-trustee on a garden variety inter vivos trust.

Which is not to say that a well-drawn trust instrument should not deal with the questions of vacancy and succession. As a practica matter, if the only nominated trustee dies, resigns or otherwise becomes unable to act, most likely a receiver will be appointed to administer the property held by the former trustee in trust (known as the trust "res"). Receiverships cost money (generally, a healthy chunk of it), and so the first thing the Court is likely to do is to order that some of the trust res be liquidated (read: sold in a public sale) in order to fund the costs of the receivership.

2) The software doesn't make it possible (or easy) to give the trust a name. I, of course, don't know for a fact, but it is remotely possible that this is so because trust "names" are meanningless. A trust, unlike a corporation, is not a legal person. A trust cannot own property, sue or be sued, make a deed, or do any of the other legal acts that legal persons (i.e., but natural persons and corporations) can do. A trust, rather, is a separation of legal title and equitable title, so that the trustee has bare legal title to property in which he has no personal interest, and which he is bound to manage for the benefit of the beneficiary or beneficiaries. The trustee is subject to a raft of duties, including the duty of fealty (loyalty), the duty of diligance, the duty of productivity, and the duty of diversity. (The economic sort, not the ethnic sort.) This collection of legally enforceable duties, by the way, is generally not understood by most non-professional trustees, a fact that usually brings them great grief (and the bar some measure of wealth).

Now, I should disclose that I have never taken the time to research or ponder the question of how an inter vivos trust might be used in connection with taking title to a National Firearms Act firearm. But the first notion to get out of your head is that the trust would be the owner of the firearm. As I've said, a "trust" does not exist and cannot own property. As a result, the NFA firearm would be owned, legally, by the trustee and it would be owned, equitably, by the beneficiary or beneficiaries. At the risk of speculating, I would expect that both must be demonstrated to be qualified owners, and most likely both would have to be identified on any registration required for the firearm. So I guess I don't really see the point.

3) "It doesn't allow a co-trustee to be a beneficiary." Wow, what a can of worms. In the first place, it is difficult, and in some cases impossible, to square the fiduciary duties of a trustee from the personal interest of a beneficiaries. And where you have the same person as the sole trustee and the sole beneficiary, you have a trust that violates the Statute of Uses (chapter 2 of the Acts of Queen Anne, which is still the law in Massachusetts and a lot of other places), the result of which is that the trust is a nullity and will be ignored.

Now, it is possible that you may be getting the impression that you are about to jump into a pool that is way over your head. If so, then my mission has been accomplished.

I hope I can say this without causing offense, because I really mean to be helpful, but the notion of a layman using a piece of computer software to draft a legal document of potentially huge consequences makes about as much sense as a fellow figuring that, since he has a sharp knife, he can remove his own appendix.

 

[drumenigma]

Essentially the only effect I am looking for with the trust is to say "If something happens to the trustee the successor trustee takes over". Likely if I make the trust and use it in acquiring NFA items then I would probably make my brother the successor once he gets his license. In this instance all associated with the trust would be legally able to possess said firearms.

As I mentioned before I am not inexperienced with trusts but I am not saying I am an expert by any means. I've seen trusts anywhere from one page up to probably 100 pages. I know that some lawyers would simply charge me $500 to take a pre-drafted trust document they have sitting around their office, change a few words here and there, throw in myself and whomever else is to be listed in the trust, and pass it off as if they spent hours drafting it up for me. I'm all set with that.

I don't plan on simply jumping in and not reviewing everything first as that is not how I do things especially when there are legal ramifications for my actions.

 

[drgrant]

As I've said, a "trust" does not exist and cannot own property. As a result,
the NFA firearm would be owned, legally, by the trustee and it would be owned, equitably, by the beneficiary or beneficiaries. At the risk of speculating, I would expect that both must be demonstrated to be qualified owners, and most likely both would have to be identified on any registration required for the firearm. So I guess I don't really see the point.

The point is that using a trust to acquire/keep NFA items makes your life a whole lot easier if it is done correctly. No CLEO signoff, less processing time/bs. IIRC its also possible in some cases by using a trust/corp/LLC to allow more than one person to possess said item without you in attendance, something which you can't do with an
individual tax stamp registration.

-Mike

 

[RKG]

The point is that using a trust to acquire/keep NFA items makes your life a whole lot easier if it is done correctly. No CLEO signoff, less processing time/bs. IIRC its also possible in some cases by using a trust/corp/LLC to allow more than one person to possess said item without you in attendance, something which you can't do with an
individual tax stamp registration.

-Mike

As I said, I have never investigated, and hence do not know, what the possible benefits vis-a-vis the National Firearms Act might be of something other than personal ownership.

Note that my comments about a trust, not being a jural person, having no capacity to hold title to personalty do not apply (or do not necessarily apply) to validly created corporations or LLCs. However, in most states, a corporation can be created only for the purpose of conducting a legitimate and bona fide business or for charitable purposes. I don't know that one can incorporate a personal hobby.

That said, my admonitions have a limited focus, to wit: the only non-foolish and non-very-risky way to create an inter vivos trust is to have it done by someone who has spent years becoming immersed in the law of trusts. A layman attempting to do so via a computer program is an invitation for a legal ka-boom.

 

[rscalzo]

I have no experience with Quicken Willmaker although I've used Quicken itself for many years.

I just recently went through the process with my sister of doing a trust arrangement for my mother. It was worth the cost to have a competent Family Estate lawyer do the work. The cost was well within reason and I have a great deal of confidence that when the time costs the transfers will go without a hitch. I would expect that NFA items would represent a challenge even to a lawyer well versed in estate law. While the normal range of firearm's isn't a big deal in the course of inheritance, NFA items probably would be.. (can I be in your will????)

For the same reason I won't use Quicken's tax filing software. When the IRS questioned some items, my accountant handled it quickly. Like the ad said, I can't ask the box.

 

[drumenigma]

I have no experience with Quicken Willmaker although I've used Quicken itself for many years.

I just recently went through the process with my sister of doing a trust arrangement for my mother. It was worth the cost to have a competent Family Estate lawyer do the work. The cost was well within reason and I have a great deal of confidence that when the time costs the transfers will go without a hitch. I would expect that NFA items would represent a challenge even to a lawyer well versed in estate law. While the normal range of firearm's isn't a big deal in the course of inheritance, NFA items probably would be.. (can I be in your will????)

For the same reason I won't use Quicken's tax filing software. When the IRS questioned some items, my accountant handled it quickly. Like the ad said, I can't ask the box.

I have actually used Turbotax for the past two or three years or so to do my taxes and have had good experiences thus far. They do offer a service where if you are audited they handle everything with the IRS fortunately I haven't had to use that service as my taxes have been quite straight forward. I guess I am hoping that my experience with the Quicken software will be similar. The other option I had thought of was using legalzoom.com since they actually have lawyers that create, review, and file the documents for you however I am confident and competent enough where I believe I can reach the desired result with the software.

 

[abomb60]

I used Quicken Willmaker recently to create my trust. I'm using the trust for various things some of which are NFA items. All I can tell you is based on my recent experience with the ATF. The ATF is now paying very close attention to those of us using trusts to register NFA items. They will require the entire trust paperwork with the schedule A (trust property form) attached. I submitted my Form 1 with the abridged trust documentation and got a phone call requesting it all. Most believe the ATF has no business knowing about your benficiaries and property but they will ask for it now if you don't provide it.

That being said I did use Willmaker and the ATF did approve the Form 1 for my SBR PS90. I put the host firearm into the trust before I submitted the paperwork and they accepted it.

EDIT: Also remember that all beneficiaries must be allowed under state and federal law to accept possession of these items if you die. In Mass that means they must have the proper license. This can be sticky if you register an MG to a trust and your beneficiary has a Class A LTC but not a Green Card in Mass. From what i've been told the ATF is actually checking up on these things now. Don't know if it's 100% true so take it at face value.

 

[Lxpony]

EDIT: Also remember that all beneficiaries must be allowed under state and federal law to accept possession of these items if you die. In Mass that means they must have the proper license. This can be sticky if you register an MG to a trust and your beneficiary has a Class A LTC but not a Green Card in Mass. From what i've been told the ATF is actually checking up on these things now. Don't know if it's 100% true so take it at face value.

Or the successor trustee can liquadate the property and give the proceeds to the benes..........

what is the MA law about inheritance of a firearm?

 

[Lxpony]

OK, I did some digging.. per:

Chapter 140:
(n) The transfer of a firearm, rifle or shotgun upon the death of an owner to his heir or legatee shall be subject to the provisions of this section, provided that said heir or legatee shall within one hundred and eighty days of such transfer, obtain a firearm identification card or a license to carry firearms if not otherwise an exempt person who is qualified to receive such or apply to the licensing authority for such further limited period as may be necessary for the disposition of such firearm, rifle or shotgun;

------------------------------------------------------------------

So if the bene of a trust isnt a licensed FID/LTC holder then the bene has 180days to get licensed after they inherit the property in the schedule A OR the successor trustee who's job it is to dispearse the property to the benes can sell the guns (prop within schedule A) and give the cash to the benes.

As I can tell, the sucessor trustee probably wouldnt need to be licensed either since said MGL states you have 180 days......

Anyone disagree?

 

[drumenigma]

OK, I did some digging.. per:

Chapter 140:
(n) The transfer of a firearm, rifle or shotgun upon the death of an owner to his heir or legatee shall be subject to the provisions of this section, provided that said heir or legatee shall within one hundred and eighty days of such transfer, obtain a firearm identification card or a license to carry firearms if not otherwise an exempt person who is qualified to receive such or apply to the licensing authority for such further limited period as may be necessary for the disposition of such firearm, rifle or shotgun;

------------------------------------------------------------------

So if the bene of a trust isnt a licensed FID/LTC holder then the bene has 180days to get licensed after they inherit the property in the schedule A OR the successor trustee who's job it is to dispearse the property to the benes can sell the guns (prop within schedule A) and give the cash to the benes.

As I can tell, the sucessor trustee probably wouldnt need to be licensed either since said MGL states you have 180 days......

Anyone disagree?

I agree. The successor trustee has no rights over anything in regards to the trust until the trustees either die, are incapacitated, or resign. Therefore they don't necessarily have "access" to said property under the trust during the time the trustee or trustees are still around.