Questions about Class 3 license?

[PistolPete]

I've gone back and forth about making the effort to apply for my class III license. I know the lengthy process and the expense involved and that isn't my issue. Some of the information I've gathered is that you give up your right to search and seizure. Can anyone confirm this for me and does anyone know any instances where their property has been searched? If you currently have your class III feel free to give me any insight. I live in a rural town and think I potentially have a 30/70 chance of getting the permit. What other liberties do you give up when owning this license? I know about the $200 tax per purchase which isn't an issue. Does this license set a HUGE red flag and keep you under big brothers watchful eye?

Thanks in advance,
Pete

 

[chuck9899]

was majorly wrong but links are still valid for some good info.

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/class3.htm
http://www.vectorarms.com/instructions/how_to_own.html

edit of course if your a dealer going to sell NFA, then please disregard anything i said.

 

[dreppucci007]

thought there really wasnt a class 3 lic. for the average joe. to get a fully automatic weapon as i recall only requires you to fill out the paper work and go through a whole set of procedures that takes months to get and that is per weapon.

I'm unsure of other states, but this is NOT true in MA. In MA, in addition to your LTC, you must also obtain a Machine Gun License (aka "Green Card," IIRC).

Short and sweet, in order to obtain a Machine Gun License, you either have to be training LE (something along these lines) or considered a "Bonafide Collector," hence essentially requiring a C&R FFL.

THEN, you still must go through a process with your city/town's CLEO...

Only then, can you "fill out the paperwork and go through a whole set of procedures." ***aka paying the $200 tax stamp***

I know it can get into more detail with a trust or other types of FFLs, but I'm not going to bother...If somebody feels the need to repost this information AGAIN, feel free. Otherwise, a simple search should bring up great deals of information.



Pete,

I apologize, but I do not know the answer with regard to losing your Search and Seizure rights.

My only advice for you...If you truly believe your chances of getting your license is REALLY 30/70, in fact if they were GREAT, it is imperative that you sit down and discuss this with your CLEO...Perhaps hire an attorney. If you start going through the process without being 100% certain of success, and get denied your machine gun license, YOU WILL have to answer "Yes" to the question: Have you ever been denied a firearms license? (unsure of exact wording)

Just my 0.02

 

[Supermoto]

Pete,

If you are interested in Full Auto, then you need your machine gun license, as you know, But if you are interested in a SBR, then you do not need the Machine gun license. Either way, if you go thru a Trust then you do no need a CLEO signature on the tax stamp

As for a 4th amendment rights, what I have heard from others is that the ATF can request to see the firearm at anytime, but can not come into your home unannounced without a warrant. I have been told that if they request to see the firearm, you can schedule a time at their office to present the firearm.

 

[PistolPete]

The SBR is another great idea. The idea of the class III is great but not sure if it is worth all the effort and risks. The SBR would prob. be just as fun.

Good point about if getting rejected that having to answer "yes" to being turned down for a firearms license. Never thought of that.

Mike you going to Harvard tomorrow? I have a 5 pm appointment in Worcester that I'm going to try blast thru so I can get down there by 6 but it will all depend on how long the appointment runs.

 

[Supermoto]

I'll be at Harvard...

If you can get a license and have the cash...full auto is a great investment...if you don't blow all your money on ammo to run them

 

[Len-2A Training]

I'm confused by what you mean here, so I'll assume others could be too.

We sometimes call them "class 3" guns when we mean Full Auto. BATFE calls
the C&R FFL an "03 FFL". It entitles you to buy any C&R status gun. Yes this includes SOME Full Auto guns.

Since you also have to meet the laws in your state of residence, MA has a special license just for "machine guns". It is NOT good for anything else but Full Auto/Burst firearms. The cost and basic procedure is the same as for a LTC, and like an LTC the chief has final discretion. MANY chiefs will NOT issue a "green card" (machine gun license) to anyone in their town, period!

MGLs require that you MUST be either of two things to qualify for the "green card":

- MPTC Certified LE Firearms Trainer. [I'm keeping it simple here, other Police Academies Firearms Trainers also qualify.]

- OR a "bonafide collector"! Chief Ron Glidden had them put the possession of a C&R FFL in the definition of what would prove that you are a "bonafide collector".

Getting a C&R FFL is VERY SIMPLE: $30, fill out a form, drop a copy off with your chief (it is a NOTIFICATION, he doesn't have to do anything with it, there is NO approval by the chief required) and wait a month or three.

IF you get the "green card" and C&R FFL, every transfer requires that you fill out forms, get your chief's signature (another roadblock for many) and pay $200 to the Feds, then wait many months for approval to take possession.

As pointed out, if you apply for a green card and are denied, this will be a black stain that you must explain on every license application that you fill out for MA or elsewhere for the rest of your life (at least every app I've ever looked at requires this info). So, you hold a "meeting" with your chief upfront to learn if he would issue a "green card" before wasting your money and reputation by applying for one.

 

[Ripach]

We sometimes call them "class 3" guns when we mean Full Auto. BATFE calls the C&R FFL an "03 FFL". It entitles you to buy any C&R status gun. Yes this includes SOME Full Auto guns.

I believe the confusion with regard to this comes from the fact that the Feds, BATF and otherwise, refer to full auto/burst weapons as "Title III firearms" as in Title III of the NFA. Gun friendly media (magazines) and firearms retailers have compounded the confusion by just agreeing with instead of correcting us average gun schleps when we incorrectly use the term class III firearm. I could be wrong about this, and if I am someone will surely correct me.
Back to the topic, All the Info you (PistolPete) need is either in this thread or findable with a search of this site. If you decide to apply, best of luck to you, and keep us posted as to how it goes.

 

[Supermoto]

There are two kinds of firearms , title 1 firearms and title 2.
Title 1 firearms are long guns (rifles and
shotguns), handguns.

Title 2 weapons are NFA weapons. Machine guns SBR SBS
Title 2 of the 1968 Gun Control Act is the National Firearms Act hence NFA.

NFA weapons are also sometimes called class 3 weapons, because a class 3 SOT is needed to deal in NFA weapons.

Pete...more info about the 4th amend

As to one who is neither a FFL nor SOT, but only owns weapons
regulated under the National Firearms Act, ATF may only compel you
to show an agent upon request the registration paperwork, that is
the Form 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or whatever else might have been used to
register the weapon. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 5841(e). They do not have
any right to compel you to produce the weapon. As always the
Fourth amendment applies, and ATF may not enter your home or other
place of storage of the NFA weapon, nor seize the weapon, without
a warrant, or without falling under an exception the Supreme Court
has created to the operation of the Fourth amendment, or without
your consent.

Pulled from here http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

 

[drgrant]

The SBR is another great idea. The idea of the class III is great but not sure if it is worth all the effort and risks. The SBR would prob. be just as fun.

Good point about if getting rejected that having to answer "yes" to being turned down for a firearms license. Never thought of that.

I wouldn't count a CLEO saying "not a chance" to you verbally as a
rejection or a formal denial for that purpose. That is how green
card applications typically go... it's not a matter of filing the paperwork
and praying you get accepted... you're better off asking the IA beforehand before you
even waste the time. So from that standpoint, there is very little
"risk. " unless you think your IA/chief is so unstable that he would deny your
LTC renewal next time around for even asking them. Typically you need a
Type 03 C+R FFL first (regardless of whether or not you even use it for
anything) to qualify as a "bona fide collector" under MA law. (it doesn't say
this explicitly, but having a type 03 is commonly considered "evidence" of
qualifying, in MA. ). Sometimes political connections, etc, helps, or even
having intel... eg, someone whose been there done that in your town
already.

One thing is for sure... if you're interested in MGs, sooner is better than
later, as the prices never go down, and likely never will on civilian
MG transferables, sort of a revolution or insurrection happening in the
US. If I had enough coin sitting around to pick up an MP5 or something
to that effect I would be jumping through the flaming hoops to try to get
my foot in the door before the bar gets raised too high. As it stands civilian
MGs are drastically overpriced for what you get. As time goes on I lose more
and more interest due to the price... once the prices blow by what it costs to
buy a new car, then that certainly puts things in perspective... it's
hard to justify paying over 10 times something's "actual value" when all
you're paying for is the privledge of owning it. The only redeeming
property is that if you needed to sell it you would probably get your
cash back out of the gun. (course, on the whole with burning up tons of
ammo that might mitigate the effects of the inflation quite a bit...


-Mike

 

[securityboy]

What better reason to come to the Hanson MG shoot this weekend, then to talk to actual mass. MG owners, and not just one or two but dozens/ Any of us will be happen to talk to you...

http://www.hansonshoot.com

But, NO you don't give up your search/seazure rights...

I've gone back and forth about making the effort to apply for my class III license. I know the lengthy process and the expense involved and that isn't my issue. Some of the information I've gathered is that you give up your right to search and seizure. Can anyone confirm this for me and does anyone know any instances where their property has been searched? If you currently have your class III feel free to give me any insight. I live in a rural town and think I potentially have a 30/70 chance of getting the permit. What other liberties do you give up when owning this license? I know about the $200 tax per purchase which isn't an issue. Does this license set a HUGE red flag and keep you under big brothers watchful eye?

Thanks in advance,
Pete