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Out of State won't sell C&R pistol. HELP!

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Guys, I won an auction online for a pistol that is C&R eligible.
The guy refuses to move forward with the sale citing that it is not on the roster and that the roster supercedes C&R eligibility.

He's asking me to cite laws.
Is there anything that says specifically that C&R pistols can be shipped directly to a C&R FFL in Mass?
I only find that Mass law does not expressly prohibit C&R sales across state lines.

Help!

Thanks.
 

daltrey99

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HE cleary doesnt know what he is talking about. It doesnt have to be on the roster if it is 50 years or older. I find that dealing with some people is a lost cause. What pistol are we talking about?
 

jasonj84

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Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but the roster only applies to what an FFL can transfer to a non FFL resident. I don't see how it applies in this case, as he is "technically" shipping it to an (03) FFL. May still be an uphill battle.
 

exo

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You're not going to find a law that says it's legal for C&R guns to be shipped here because that's not how laws work.
 

daltrey99

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I mistook what you were saying. I figured you were talking about the C&R roster and not the Mass BS roster. Yeah, like others have said, you will not find a law. The Mass roster is for Mass dealers. It is 100% ok for you to receive the C&R elligible pistol but good luck on trying to convince the guy. Thats why I always check with the seller beforehand to make sure the deal will be ok. A simple "I am looking to use my C&R on said auction, Is this type of transaction ok with you?" I have never had a problem. I have had a few say no though and I have moved on. I rather deal with it before the close of the auction and not after it ended.
 
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Yeah . . .
So that's what I thought. I'm pretty sure he's just scared poopless about dealing with MA.

The pistol is a CZ45. Really nice shape too.
But I don't like giving my money to people that give me a hard time.

Thanks fellas. I'm pretty sure he has decided just not to sell to me and I'm not gonna belabor the point any longer to him.
 
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Why go through all the hassle of going to RI or NH? Call your local gun shop and ask him if he'll transfer it to you on your C&R if the guy ships it to him. As far as the seller is concerned, his responsibility ends once he has shipped it to a another federally licensed person. What happens after that is not his problem.

Sounds like he's an idiot though, and you can't fix stupid. Worth a shot, though.
 

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Why go through all the hassle of going to RI or NH? Call your local gun shop and ask him if he'll transfer it to you on your C&R if the guy ships it to him. As far as the seller is concerned, his responsibility ends once he has shipped it to a another federally licensed person. What happens after that is not his problem.

Sounds like he's an idiot though, and you can't fix stupid. Worth a shot, though.

The OP is a 03 FFL.

- - - Updated - - -

Cause some mass dealers wont help out, cause there worried. So it could be easyier to sen it to nh, then drive around mass finding a dealer that will honor ur c&r...

Most dealers I know in MA do honor 03 FFL's.
 

Boghog1

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Doesnt have to be on the "list" per say. It is automatically elligible if over 50 years of age.

never mind

Firearms Curios or Relics List
A regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR Section 478.11, defines C&R firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) for a formal classification.

Please note that firearms regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) may be classified as C&R items, but still may be subject to the provisions of the NFA. If your C&R item is an NFA firearm (e.g., Winchester Trappers) and you desire removal from the NFA status, you must submit it to FTB for evaluation and a formal classification.
 
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daltrey99

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i know what the book says, but atf tells us if it is not listed we should stay away from it.

The ATF is very screwed up. If you call them, they will tell you straight out that it doesnt have to be on the list. The P38 and P1 is 100% elligible as a C&R and it is not in the published list. I do however have an email and letter from the ATF stating that it is indeed elligible. I was part of a group that got it elligible in all forms. I have given a copy of the letter to a few people when purchasing p38's and P1's since their status change. I can see where an FFL is coming from in being cautious. I would take what is in writting over what some ATF agent tells you though.
 
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if you still need the cite that says a firearm that was made before 10.21.1998 (which includes C&R handguns) is exempt from the approved roster, the citation is G.L. c. 140 sec. 123, second paragraph. States in full "Clauses Eighteenth to Twenty-first, inclusive, of the first paragraph shall not apply to: (a) any firearm lawfully owned or possessed under a license issued under this chapter on or before October 21, 1998; or (b) any firearm designated by the secretary of public safety, with the advice of the gun control advisory board established pursuant to section 1311/2 of chapter 140, as a firearm solely designed and sold for formal target shooting competition. The secretary of public safety shall compile a list, on a bi-annual basis, of firearms designated as formal target shooting firearms in accordance with this paragraph. Such list shall be made available for distribution by the executive office of public safety."

Clauses 18-21 deal with the approved roster
 

exo

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if you still need the cite that says a firearm that was made before 10.21.1998 (which includes C&R handguns) is exempt from the approved roster, the citation is G.L. c. 140 sec. 123, second paragraph. States in full "Clauses Eighteenth to Twenty-first, inclusive, of the first paragraph shall not apply to: (a) any firearm lawfully owned or possessed under a license issued under this chapter on or before October 21, 1998; or (b) any firearm designated by the secretary of public safety, with the advice of the gun control advisory board established pursuant to section 1311/2 of chapter 140, as a firearm solely designed and sold for formal target shooting competition. The secretary of public safety shall compile a list, on a bi-annual basis, of firearms designated as formal target shooting firearms in accordance with this paragraph. Such list shall be made available for distribution by the executive office of public safety."

Clauses 18-21 deal with the approved roster

That wouldn't help him unless it was in MA prior to that date. None of this applies to FFL to FFL transfers, which is what this is since the OP is a 03FFL. Good luck convincing the seller though...
 

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i know what the book says, but atf tells us if it is not listed we should stay away from it.




If you are talking about >50 yrs old, that is laid out in plain English in 27 CFR 11 Part 478.11 as quoted below (page 36 of ATF Pub 5300.4):

Curios or relics.

Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

The agents who tell you otherwise have an agenda and are making shit up as they go to suit their agenda. I HATE people like that!!!!! [Similarly during an IRS audit back in the 1970s, an IRS Supervisor had the balls to tell me that "HE DISAGREED" with the IRS publication I had in my hand wrt education expenses being a "business expense". I looked him in the eye and told him that he was wrong and I'd see him in Tax Court, turned on my heel and walked away from him. Of course I won my point on the next level of appeal.]

If someone wants to cower under their desk when anyone in authority tells them something is LAW when they are blatantly lying and you have written proof, that is up to them. I don't play that way!
 
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