Jason Flare
NES Member
If sarin gas were available today on the grocery store shelf would people reach for it and buy it?
Would they use it?
Would they use it?
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I was pulled in to a HR meeting at work due to the 2a.
- Thread starter leewongfei
- Start date
Those idiots in Boston did "mass destruction" with some over the counter items, by your logic we should be dying in scores every day because those items are not illegal. As much as your government has trained you to think otherwise, it helpless to protect you as its power effects only those who wish to live within the law.
Jason Flare
NES Member
The someone who would buy sarin gas today. Could that person make sarin gas if it weren't readily available on the grocery store shelf?
No, they failed miserably at making bombs, like most bombers. Look up REF and learn about the differences between various HME and commercial and military explosives. Look at causulty counts from suicide and car bombings made from various pipe bombs in the US and explosive vests using military explosives in Israel, Iraq, Etc.
If those pressure cookers were made with C4, you'd be looking at 50-100+ dead easily.
ETA: Most of these criminals aren't smart. Hence why they only manage to kill like 4 people in a mall with an AR. I'm sure it can be synthesized by a chemist, but that precludes 99.9% of psychos from using it.
Mike
If those pressure cookers were made with C4, you'd be looking at 50-100+ dead easily.
ETA: Most of these criminals aren't smart. Hence why they only manage to kill like 4 people in a mall with an AR. I'm sure it can be synthesized by a chemist, but that precludes 99.9% of psychos from using it.
Mike
HR does not approve of HME.
Your arguments are now coming back around to hurt you.
Most criminals are stupid.
Okay. So then if they had better more advanced stuff maybe they would handle it wrong and kill themselves.
Garands are fine because if you want you can use them to kill others to get to bigger stuff. So banning bigger stuff won't be effective when you just kill and steal it, but not banning it is bad because stupid people might use the bigger stuff in malicious ways? That is sensible...
Something tells me in those other countries, all these military explosives used by 'terrorist' (civilians), they weren't acquired legally. So your point there is............................
Or as CD just said, maybe "As much as your government has trained you to think otherwise, it helpless to protect you as its power effects only those who wish to live within the law."
Most criminals are stupid.
Okay. So then if they had better more advanced stuff maybe they would handle it wrong and kill themselves.
Garands are fine because if you want you can use them to kill others to get to bigger stuff. So banning bigger stuff won't be effective when you just kill and steal it, but not banning it is bad because stupid people might use the bigger stuff in malicious ways? That is sensible...
Something tells me in those other countries, all these military explosives used by 'terrorist' (civilians), they weren't acquired legally. So your point there is............................
Or as CD just said, maybe "As much as your government has trained you to think otherwise, it helpless to protect you as its power effects only those who wish to live within the law."
Jason Flare
NES Member
The first assumption you are making is that only a chemist can synthesize sarin. In my opinion any person who knows how to synthesize sarin can synthesize sarin with or without a degree in chemistry.
Number 2. Where did you get the 99.9% number?
It just hasn't happened. We KNOW that available tools are used to committ mass murder, usually those perceived to be most dangerous. Explosives often flop. Gas is occasionally tried but rarely successful. We know what happens when explosives and gas are successful, and in those cases they are generally acquired due to destabilization in an area. The results are devastating.
99.9% was pulled out of my ass, but if you added up how many times Sarin has been synthesized and used vs Explosives, firearms, chlorine and mustard gas, the numbers would probably be less than 1/1000.
I'll make this easier... You have no problem with Sarin being sold at home depot in 55 gallon drums to anyone who wants it?
Mike
What you are not understanding is, the law is not what is keeping it out of peoples hands. If there are people that know how to make it, and people willing to buy it, it will be manufactured and sold. The fact is, your neighbors aren't in the market for it and the only one benefiting by your eleutherophobia is the government.
How many acres of field did it take to gather all that straw by the way?
You can't compare a black market and black market pricing, as well as oversight, to an open market. Do you know where to get some Sarin gas now, if you wanted it? You're probably smarter than 99% of people who would use it... you think you could find some? I doubt I could find any, and I consider myself pretty smart. I'd probably have better luck synthesizing it. If it was on the black market, what kind of pricing do you think we would see? likely prohibitively expensive for your average stormfront.com terrorist who lives in his mothers trailer.
Answer my question... Are you cool with Sarin gas being sold at home depot to anyone who wants it?
Mike
Answer my question... Are you cool with Sarin gas being sold at home depot to anyone who wants it?
Mike
crazymjb said:
Because regulating firearms and selling drums of sarin at Home Depot are exactly the same thing.
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
This strawman is getting old now.
They aren't. Which is my point. As I said... I don't think firearms should be regulated nearly to the level they are now. I think a blanket statement should exist that all semi-automatic firearms are to be sold to non-PPs with no restrictions on design.
Mike
Mike
So you support this position by constantly talking about Home Depot selling sarin gas???
I'm not sure how anybody can read that and think, yep, he is making a point about semi-auto firearms.
You position may have merit, but your massive strawman does not.
Any pesticide manufacturer, or biotech company has the equipment for one person to make some after hours. Wouldn't take long to find if someone really wanted it, but the economics aren't there. Once upon a time you could pick it up at the local farm supply.
Would I want it on the shelves at Home Depot? What I want doesn't matter because I have no right to control what other people do, that is where we differ, you want to play dictator and I do not. I can say with a high degree of confidence however, that it would never be carried there regardless of law since McDonald's almost lost its ass 20 years ago over Styrofoam for Christ's sake.
Wrong. You live in a society where we have agreed to respect the rights of other people. Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are there. Most firearms restrictions hinder or threaten those 3 things. Restricting items like Sarin as well as other items don't significantly hinder our ability to fight a tyrannical government an at the same time help keep the population safe to pursue life, liberty, and the happiness.
WRT to the liability argument... intended purposes. Sarin exists as a weaponized nerve agent, its purpose is to kill many over an exposed area. For the same reason you can't go after firearms for them doing their job, you can't go after Sarin manufacturers and dealers for it doing it's job. So home depot would be A OK stocking it, if it were unregulated.
I'm not a dictator, in anything short of anarchy we are cool with the government regulating our actions to some degree or another. That includes possession of items which pose a significant public safety threat.
Mike
WRT to the liability argument... intended purposes. Sarin exists as a weaponized nerve agent, its purpose is to kill many over an exposed area. For the same reason you can't go after firearms for them doing their job, you can't go after Sarin manufacturers and dealers for it doing it's job. So home depot would be A OK stocking it, if it were unregulated.
I'm not a dictator, in anything short of anarchy we are cool with the government regulating our actions to some degree or another. That includes possession of items which pose a significant public safety threat.
Mike
Unregulated and not regulated by state are not the same, this "society" you speak of would regulate it through lack of demand and admonishment. As much as you don't want Sarin on the Home Depot shelves neither do the people that run it, unless you are insinuating that they are terrorists. Government didn't get Styrofoam out of McDonald's, massive boycott and protest did. It's not illegal for you to walk down the street and flip everyone the bird, social pressure stops you.
And you should not use the term "we" so liberally. I did not agree to anything you speak of, there is no "we" cool with your specific details of government regulation. This is the same social contract bull I hear constantly from proponents of single payer healthcare.
Jason Flare
NES Member
No. I do not believe that sarin should be sold at HD in 55 gallon drums to anyone who wants it for the same reason that I didn't store the bleach in our baby's crib. If HD sold sarin, despite all the warning labels, some consumer might use it against cockroaches or mice and inadvertently destroy a town or two having not read the label.
The point is this: Despite being illegal, everyone who wanted to buy and smoke pot today did so. Everyone who wanted to go into a school and murder children did so. Everyone who wanted to shoot a co-worker did so. Because nothing really stopped them. It's not the laws stopping bad people from doing bad things, it's that what most people choose to do is not all that harmful to other human beings.
We don't put sarin gas on the grocery store shelf or sell it at Home Depot not because an evil person will grab it and murder thousands of people, but because someone might unwittingly expect that their grocery store or HD are selling relatively harmless consumer commodities and read the label after they've cracked open the drum. (Or, more realistically, it will briefly cross their mind that they should have read the directions.)
There's nothing stopping bad people from accomplishing all the bad things they want to accomplish. We put a man on the moon in 1968 with the computing power of a hand held calculator. If an individual wants to figure out how to make up a good batch of sarin it's well within the realm of possibility.
For all are sinners and fall short of the glory of God, but few fall to the depths of checking sarin gas out in the 12 items or less isle and wiping out a swath of human beings.
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![[horse]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/026.gif "Beat a dead horse [horse]")
Maybe try a new point of talking about something that you know, others are actually arguing against?
Or just stick with this. I think you have something here...
Bad people are slowed down by lack of availability of certain items. If gun shops sold C4 (and there unquestionably would be a demand for C4), many more of the mass shootings or bombings in this country would have death counts well into the hundreds.
I would absolutely have an M203 on my AR and a bunch of 40mm HEDP... and that crap would undoubtedly kill people in accidents (as it does in the military) and be used in mass killings. Unlike ARs... 40mm grenades are much more devastating than non-explosive weapons.
Mike
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I would absolutely have an M203 on my AR and a bunch of 40mm HEDP... and that crap would undoubtedly kill people in accidents (as it does in the military) and be used in mass killings. Unlike ARs... 40mm grenades are much more devastating than non-explosive weapons.
Mike
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Projection?
Jason Flare
NES Member
Explain what you mean by, "slowed down."
That may be believable when bombs and grenades fueled with black powder occur with regularity.
Supplementary items are readily available that will make C4 look like a firecracker, GMAFB!!!
And I am not a EOD or DET expert, just trained in what needs to be done and how to accomplish the mission.
Jason Flare
NES Member
I'm listening.....
Sarin gas? Seriously? ![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Dumbest strawman ever. Dumbest argument for regulation, ever.
Even if BATFE and other controlling agencies were gone tomorrow, I don't think you would be seeing guys with dumpsters full of C4 at the gun shows and AT4s any time soon (btw, those are $1500 a piece... for ONE SHOT... I'm sure its a burgeoning market. )
There are also 100 ways I can think of to mitigate most of the "public safety" risks you speak of, without creating a serious infringement of the malum prohibitum "oh you can't have that!!!" variety. There are a ton of other factors that would limit proliferation of NBC / high explosives in any civilized society. Liability is huge, and it's way easier to argue vicarious liability with explosives or sarin gas (or insert some other stupid macguffin/canard here) than it is with small arms. A layperson can understand how a gun works. A layperson probably doesn't know jack shit about high explosives or NBC weapons. You could also create laws that punish people for misuse of all of this crap without having that law being infringing or of a malum prohibitum nature.. For example it would be trivial to have a law where if an adult purchased a grenade somehow, let's say.... and a child got a hold of it and blew up himself and 3 of his friends, you could hold the adult criminally liable.
-Mike
Dumbest strawman ever. Dumbest argument for regulation, ever.
Even if BATFE and other controlling agencies were gone tomorrow, I don't think you would be seeing guys with dumpsters full of C4 at the gun shows and AT4s any time soon (btw, those are $1500 a piece... for ONE SHOT... I'm sure its a burgeoning market. )
There are also 100 ways I can think of to mitigate most of the "public safety" risks you speak of, without creating a serious infringement of the malum prohibitum "oh you can't have that!!!" variety. There are a ton of other factors that would limit proliferation of NBC / high explosives in any civilized society. Liability is huge, and it's way easier to argue vicarious liability with explosives or sarin gas (or insert some other stupid macguffin/canard here) than it is with small arms. A layperson can understand how a gun works. A layperson probably doesn't know jack shit about high explosives or NBC weapons. You could also create laws that punish people for misuse of all of this crap without having that law being infringing or of a malum prohibitum nature.. For example it would be trivial to have a law where if an adult purchased a grenade somehow, let's say.... and a child got a hold of it and blew up himself and 3 of his friends, you could hold the adult criminally liable.
-Mike
I'm gonna stop wasting my breath and leave it at the point that I think government regulation has a place with some items. Agree to disagree and rest easy knowing I am focusing any political effort I ever exert on relaxing gun laws.
Mike
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Mike
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Not to hijack this thread, but I am really happy about my job.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Very glad for you (seriously).Similar threads
