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Scenario;
You work for a small company and are one of the few registered gun owners in it. You plead to upper management the need for security in your work place. They agree that security is a necessity and appoint you as chief of security operations. Guidelines are put in place in the following order. (Please correct me if I left out important procedures)
Rule 1. When in doubt, call the police.
Rule 2. Ensure safety for all employees.
Rule 3. Secure area until proper authorities arrive.

Upper management has agreed to a budget, which includes your own personal closet with basic tactile security items in which only you can access. The items include first aid kits, armor, knives, a rifle, ammunition, and a communication device. Would this be legal?

As time goes on, an employee or maybe even an outside vendor such as another company’s truck driver is down on their luck. With job cut backs, last minute changes in their work schedule and the possibility of their spouse cheating on them or ending a marriage they flip. They can’t take it anymore; they break from a cold sweat and draw a weapon. In this case well say a knife. They stab one of the shippers in your company and cut another who is trying to flee.

As soon as people realize what is going on an announcement is heard over the intercom systems. “Code blue, Code blue”, the day you have been preparing for but hoped would never come is knocking on your door. The emergency button is pressed and you know that its going to be a good 5-10 minuets before help arrives. You are quick to get you armor and riffle. as you leave your closet, you see a defenseless employee running in between to storage racks in the warhouse trying to stay clear of the madness; the psychotic knifeman sees them and heads their way. It is up to you to save this persons life. He is swinging the blade left and right; he is about 15 feet away, almost within striking distance of the employee. From a across the isle you have a clear shot on the knifeman nervous about what is happening you have him in your sights, you take a deep breath and for what seems to be eternity you pull the trigger twice and watch the knifeman fall to the ground as he is looking at you. As you are checking the status of the person who was in the path of the knifeman you began to hear sirens in the distance, you clear your riffle secure it and walk out side with your hands up to avoid being misrecognised.

What can be done different about this?
What can you expect to happen from the police?
What laws are being broken?
What is likely to happen to you?

B.J.
 
Of course the following happens to you...

The police get there, check the scene, give you a hearty pat on the back and commend you on your fine shooting skills. The news media shows up, and interviews the hero that has just saved countless lives with his quick and precise action. Without even 1 minute in a police station, or court room, you are cleared of ANY wrong doing.

The next week a parade through town square is held in your honor, and following your speech to the townsfolk, the mayor gives you the key to the city, and immediately hires you as chief security adviser to the town.

You then make it your lives work, to properly arm and train all town residents. Crime in your town falls to 0%, the state sees this outstanding record of achievement, and talks you into running for senator. You win the election in a landslide victory.

Your 2 short years in senate are filled with repeating the work you did in your own town, only now on a statewide level. You aide in getting laws passed that ACTUALLY punish the CRIMINALS. The criminal element, scared of being in a place that they have to pay for their crimes move to California. Crime rate drops to such a low level in your state, others are pounding on the door just to get in.

Your 2 years are coming to an end in the senate, and your political party has encouraged you to run for President of these United States. Again, your election win is a landslide.

8 years have now passed, you are now reflecting upon your achievements as President. All the criminals in the US are either rotting away in hard labor camps, or have moved to France. The 100' high wall that surrounds ALL of the us boarders, is doing it's intended purpose, and after forcefully removing ALL illegal immigrants, the United States of America is a truly safe place to live.

Life is happy for all citizens, everyone has jobs at a fair wage, everyone is pulling their own weight (of course they have to, because welfare no longer exists for people able to do ANY job) Life is grand, the entire rest of the world both FEARS and RESPECTS us.

Yeah... I think it might play out something like that... [roll]

Adam
 
Thought you would like that...

I didn't even intend for that response from getting much bigger than the first 2 sentences... It just kept growing, and I kept giggling like a school girl while writing it. :D
 
Adam_MA said:
Thought you would like that...

I didn't even intend for that response from getting much bigger than the first 2 sentences... It just kept growing, and I kept giggling like a school girl while writing it. :D


But, were you giggling like a college school girl on dollar draft night??
 
C-pher said:
Adam_MA said:
Thought you would like that...

I didn't even intend for that response from getting much bigger than the first 2 sentences... It just kept growing, and I kept giggling like a school girl while writing it. :D


But, were you giggling like a college school girl on dollar draft night??

Oh you know it!
 
I would first have to ask why in the hell would you have knives in your tactical closet. I doubt a company would condone it's security personel knife fighting disgruntled employees.

Second, why a rifle? I would assume a company would be more likely to allow a handgun. Not to mention the rifle has to stay locked up because you can;t walk around with the thing. Which means when the SHTF you have to run all the way back to the closet.

Armor??? What company are you working for that would not only get a permit for the armor but actually pay for it?

I would have to say that pepper spray would also be a requirement. Non lethal helps company owners sleep at night.

Another flaw, you took down the threat. But your biggest problem. Your job isn't done until the ride home. Someone hit a button so you didn't witness the first situation, meaning there could be more than one agressor. If you just secured your weapon then your f'd. Their partner would now of course have you as their primary target. Always stay on your toes. I have heard horror stories from co workers about what they thought would be a 100% kill shot, not being one at all.

If you shot them, then the media and police would ask why your company didnt require you to carry pepper spray, say that you acted a little too strong. But, if you did have pepper spray and shot instead you'd be screwed twice over. Both situations will most likely lead to termination and definitaly an investigation.

As far as police identifying you when they arrive on scene just make sure you have bold lettering on your jacket identifying you, and listen to every command they give you.


Conclusion: Just turn the TV in your security booth up a little louder, you thought the siren was your microwave saying the popcorn was done.
 
I would first have to ask why in the hell would you have knives in your tactical closet. I doubt a company would condone it's security personel knife fighting disgruntled employees.
Knives to me are tools not just weapons… That’s liberal thinking.

Second, why a rifle? I would assume a company would be more likely to allow a handgun. Not to mention the rifle has to stay locked up because you can;t walk around with the thing. Which means when the SHTF you have to run all the way back to the closet.
I am an OK shot with my 1911, I’m on paper at 75 ft, But I am much better with my riffles

Armor??? What company are you working for that would not only get a permit for the armor but actually pay for it?

I’ll give ya that one.

I would have to say that pepper spray would also be a requirement. Non lethal helps company owners sleep at night.
Although pepper spray makes me cry like a little girl, not effective on everybody. I feel much better walking down an alley in Roxbury with my pistol then mace.

Another flaw, you took down the threat. But your biggest problem. Your job isn't done until the ride home. Someone hit a button so you didn't witness the first situation, meaning there could be more than one agressor. If you just secured your weapon then your f'd. Their partner would now of course have you as their primary target. Always stay on your toes. I have heard horror stories from co workers about what they thought would be a 100% kill shot, not being one at all.

It was one truck driver who flipped, not the USPS.

If you shot them, then the media and police would ask why your company didnt require you to carry pepper spray, say that you acted a little too strong. But, if you did have pepper spray and shot instead you'd be screwed twice over. Both situations will most likely lead to termination and definitaly an investigation.
I agree with you, Looks like I would be calling my “proper” attorney from the police station.

As far as police identifying you when they arrive on scene just make sure you have bold lettering on your jacket identifying you, and listen to every command they give you.

Well I certainly wouldn’t be running out of the building firing victory shots in the air.
[wink]

Not being sarcastic I do appreciate the feedback. I know I am not right about much of this, that's why I am looking for your input.
 
Moderator said:
I would first have to ask why in the hell would you have knives in your tactical closet. I doubt a company would condone it's security personel knife fighting disgruntled employees.
Knives to me are tools not just weapons… That’s liberal thinking.

Second, why a rifle? I would assume a company would be more likely to allow a handgun. Not to mention the rifle has to stay locked up because you can;t walk around with the thing. Which means when the SHTF you have to run all the way back to the closet.
I am an OK shot with my 1911, I’m on paper at 75 ft, But I am much better with my riffles

Armor??? What company are you working for that would not only get a permit for the armor but actually pay for it?

I’ll give ya that one.

I would have to say that pepper spray would also be a requirement. Non lethal helps company owners sleep at night.
Although pepper spray makes me cry like a little girl, not effective on everybody. I feel much better walking down an alley in Roxbury with my pistol then mace.

Another flaw, you took down the threat. But your biggest problem. Your job isn't done until the ride home. Someone hit a button so you didn't witness the first situation, meaning there could be more than one agressor. If you just secured your weapon then your f'd. Their partner would now of course have you as their primary target. Always stay on your toes. I have heard horror stories from co workers about what they thought would be a 100% kill shot, not being one at all.

It was one truck driver who flipped, not the USPS.

If you shot them, then the media and police would ask why your company didn't require you to carry pepper spray, say that you acted a little too strong. But, if you did have pepper spray and shot instead you'd be screwed twice over. Both situations will most likely lead to termination and definitaly an investigation.
I agree with you, Looks like I would be calling my “proper” attorney from the police station.

As far as police identifying you when they arrive on scene just make sure you have bold lettering on your jacket identifying you, and listen to every command they give you.

Well I certainly wouldn’t be running out of the building firing victory shots in the air.
[wink]

Not being sarcastic I do appreciate the feedback. I know I am not right about much of this, that's why I am looking for your input.


Rebuttal in numbered order of questioning.

1. You're a security guard not a sushi chef.
2.You're a security guard not a sniper.
3. I know.
4. Yes and I feel better walking through North Philly with a tank. But You're a security guard. If mace does not work then you are authorized to use deadly force.
5.You're a security guard not a phsycic. ( SP?) You claimed you were in your office and did not see the first act of violence. Not to mention there could be a sleeper.
6. One phone call??? I call my friend so they can make all required phone calls because I know my lawyer is out golfing. Thats just me though.
7. Of course not. Your a security guard not a cowboy.
 
centermass181 said:
permit for armor?

Qua Pasa?

Are you asking if you need a permit to buy/wear body armor?

If that is your question, the answer will vary by state (we all need to remember this is not exclusively a MA forum).

In MA, no permit for armor is issued or required. I do believe that there are "add on" penalties for wearing armor when committing a crime, however (which is preferable).
 
Grifter said:
Moderator said:
I would first have to ask why in the hell would you have knives in your tactical closet. I doubt a company would condone it's security personel knife fighting disgruntled employees.
Knives to me are tools not just weapons… That’s liberal thinking.

Second, why a rifle? I would assume a company would be more likely to allow a handgun. Not to mention the rifle has to stay locked up because you can;t walk around with the thing. Which means when the SHTF you have to run all the way back to the closet.
I am an OK shot with my 1911, I’m on paper at 75 ft, But I am much better with my riffles

Armor??? What company are you working for that would not only get a permit for the armor but actually pay for it?

I’ll give ya that one.

I would have to say that pepper spray would also be a requirement. Non lethal helps company owners sleep at night.
Although pepper spray makes me cry like a little girl, not effective on everybody. I feel much better walking down an alley in Roxbury with my pistol then mace.

Another flaw, you took down the threat. But your biggest problem. Your job isn't done until the ride home. Someone hit a button so you didn't witness the first situation, meaning there could be more than one agressor. If you just secured your weapon then your f'd. Their partner would now of course have you as their primary target. Always stay on your toes. I have heard horror stories from co workers about what they thought would be a 100% kill shot, not being one at all.

It was one truck driver who flipped, not the USPS.

If you shot them, then the media and police would ask why your company didn't require you to carry pepper spray, say that you acted a little too strong. But, if you did have pepper spray and shot instead you'd be screwed twice over. Both situations will most likely lead to termination and definitaly an investigation.
I agree with you, Looks like I would be calling my “proper” attorney from the police station.

As far as police identifying you when they arrive on scene just make sure you have bold lettering on your jacket identifying you, and listen to every command they give you.

Well I certainly wouldn’t be running out of the building firing victory shots in the air.
[wink]

Not being sarcastic I do appreciate the feedback. I know I am not right about much of this, that's why I am looking for your input.


Rebuttal in numbered order of questioning.

1. You're a security guard not a sushi chef.
2.You're a security guard not a sniper.
3. I know.
4. Yes and I feel better walking through North Philly with a tank. But You're a security guard. If mace does not work then you are authorized to use deadly force.
5.You're a security guard not a phsycic. ( SP?) You claimed you were in your office and did not see the first act of violence. Not to mention there could be a sleeper.
6. One phone call??? I call my friend so they can make all required phone calls because I know my lawyer is out golfing. Thats just me though.
7. Of course not. Your a security guard not a cowboy.

BJ - The scenario you portray is not out of the question, we've seen it happen many times including just recently with another disgruntled USPS worker.

Regardless of a few of the short-sighted mind-less responses you've received, let me say this - Your scenario is more likely to occur than the preparation against it. However, your scenario places you (or whomever) as chief of security operations, NOT as a rent-a-cop security guard. Which means you have responsibilities such as, but not limited to:

1) The security of property

2) The security and safety of employees and all authorized visitors

3) The security of sensitive company developments, or materials, against industrial espionage

The latter is just an example of one area that differeniates between a security gaurd and security operations. As a small company your weapons locker will probably be somewhat limited - depending on the type and size of the institution. Also, being a small company, you would probably have to serve as the chief of security operations and as the sole reactionary force. That means you'll have to implement and conduct some type of training program as what is expected of the employees in a crisis.

It also means the bulk of your weapons will probably be organic - meaning you will have most of them on your person. In the small-company setting you describe, rifles and shotguns are probably not appropriate. Again, it would probably just be you so you'll have to rely on whatever you can carry on a day-to-day basis - sidearm, collapsible baton, good combat folding knife, flashlight and flex-cuffs. Leave the pepper spray for the unruly old lady who won't vacate the premises, or as breath spray for the company Christmas party.

You are also going to need a good working relationship with the responding law enforcement agency and a training program that keeps you current and evaluated by other recognized professionals. The role you describe would probably also entail being in charge of medical / fire responses and prevention and certain OSHA responsibilities. It really is a multi-faceted role.

The biggest problem I see with your scenario is one of time. These type situations develop very quickly and, with the exception of a hostage situation, don't last very long. Response has to be rapid - no time for going to the locker to decide what you're going to need.

Communication is also important and will probably be relagated to the secretary / admin assist. It's important they know how to react in a situation to give good timely and accurate information to responding agencies.

Hope this helps.
 
Wasn't there a work shooting at a software company in MA maybe 5 years ago? Almost the same thing.

At my company we get mis-guided anger from taxpayers all over New England. We've had death threats, needed police escorts to leave town meetings. But we have a no firearm policy so the liberals here can feel safe.
 
Derek,

The perp was "Mucko" and the location was up in the Wilmington area. It is a "campus" type setting industrial park.

I served some legal papers for Scrivener up there (different building I think but same park) and it was sort of an odd feeling knowing that this was the location of that particular event.
 
TonyD said:
BJ - The scenario you portray is not out of the question, we've seen it happen many times including just recently with another disgruntled USPS worker.

Regardless of a few of the short-sighted mind-less responses you've received, let me say this - Your scenario is more likely to occur than the preparation against it. However, your scenario places you (or whomever) as chief of security operations, NOT as a rent-a-cop security guard. Which means you have responsibilities such as, but not limited to:

1) The security of property

2) The security and safety of employees and all authorized visitors

3) The security of sensitive company developments, or materials, against industrial espionage

The latter is just an example of one area that differeniates between a security gaurd and security operations. As a small company your weapons locker will probably be somewhat limited - depending on the type and size of the institution. Also, being a small company, you would probably have to serve as the chief of security operations and as the sole reactionary force. That means you'll have to implement and conduct some type of training program as what is expected of the employees in a crisis.

It also means the bulk of your weapons will probably be organic - meaning you will have most of them on your person. In the small-company setting you describe, rifles and shotguns are probably not appropriate. Again, it would probably just be you so you'll have to rely on whatever you can carry on a day-to-day basis - sidearm, collapsible baton, good combat folding knife, flashlight and flex-cuffs. Leave the pepper spray for the unruly old lady who won't vacate the premises, or as breath spray for the company Christmas party.

You are also going to need a good working relationship with the responding law enforcement agency and a training program that keeps you current and evaluated by other recognized professionals. The role you describe would probably also entail being in charge of medical / fire responses and prevention and certain OSHA responsibilities. It really is a multi-faceted role.

The biggest problem I see with your scenario is one of time. These type situations develop very quickly and, with the exception of a hostage situation, don't last very long. Response has to be rapid - no time for going to the locker to decide what you're going to need.

Communication is also important and will probably be relagated to the secretary / admin assist. It's important they know how to react in a situation to give good timely and accurate information to responding agencies.

Hope this helps.



Short-sighted, mind-less? I am sorry that I did not precisely elaborate on my responses but I didn't think there would be a need for anything other than what was said. Yes, there was a little humor in them on purpose but short sighted and mindlessness would be not looking deeper into the responses.

Again, I wonder what exact type of company someone would be guarding that would warrant such an extreme outlook. I do not understand the constant reccomendations for carrying a knife. Anyone who would seriously recommend carrying a knife while working security for a small to any size company has obviously been watching too many movies or eating too many MRE's in their make shift bomb shelter. It is just asking for trouble. What scenario would call for carrying that knife? If you run out of bullets for some reason are you going to tie a red bandana around your head and attempt to knife fight? No, you are not Rambo and it is not PRACTICAL.

A safety knife? Yes, I could see that. But no need for a combat style knife. As far as pepper spray goes there is no reason to knock it. Yes, I have heard stories of big tough manly men who can take it with a smile. But the truth of the matter is time and time again I have processed plenty of big tough looking guys who were crying their eyes out because the officer used a little baby bottle of the stuff. I know your cousin's friend's father spray's the stuff on his steak before he eats it and I know about how you stayed in the gassing chamber during basic longer than anyone, but trust me, I have seen what I have seen. If it wasn't effective officers wouldn't carry it.

As far as the John Wayne attitude about a security position goes there is no need for it. You are in a business. You are considered to be professional by your employers. Other than skate boarders and people that showed up to apply for a job and don't know their way out I doubt you should be looking into many extreme circumstances. If for some reason your company is at risk for being attacked than I am more than sure that they would already have a nationally operated security company working for them.

When you sign on for ANY security position the first thing they teach you is to call the cops. Don't question first, don't run to your gun closet, don't sharpen your knife or get out your exploding tipped arrows. You call the cops. You are taught that when it is an extreme situation that you are in no way to negotiate or interfear. You observe and wait for the proper authorities to arrive. If you don't believe me, call your local securitas or brinks company. They will repeat that.
 
Short-sighted, mind-less? I am sorry that I did not precisely elaborate on my responses but I didn't think there would be a need for anything other than what was said. Yes, there was a little humor in them on purpose but short sighted and mindlessness would be not looking deeper into the responses.

Okay, mind-less was probably not appropriate but short-sighted still applies.

Again, I wonder what exact type of company someone would be guarding that would warrant such an extreme outlook. I do not understand the constant reccomendations for carrying a knife. Anyone who would seriously recommend carrying a knife while working security for a small to any size company has obviously been watching too many movies or eating too many MRE's in their make shift bomb shelter. It is just asking for trouble. What scenario would call for carrying that knife? If you run out of bullets for some reason are you going to tie a red bandana around your head and attempt to knife fight? No, you are not Rambo and it is not PRACTICAL.

And here represents some of the short-sightedness. You don't have to wonder what type of company would be doing such a thing. Again, you can't get past the difference between a rent-a-cop hired to "guard" a place and an employee being charged as chief of security operations. Two totally different roles that you apparently can't comprehend.

You can't comprehend carrying a defensive tool (knife) because you apparently lack any real experience or training in self-defense. Your reference to running out of bullets, red bandanas and movies lead me to believe that the bulk of your training comes from the Rambo movies. You've probably never heard of the 21 foot rule or when Ayoob was preaching how smart it is to take a knife to gun fight over 20 years ago!

The use of improvised weapons in a defensive posture is obviously lost on you and the explanation of such is beyond the scope of this reponse.

As far as pepper spray goes there is no reason to knock it. Yes, I have heard stories of big tough manly men who can take it with a smile. But the truth of the matter is time and time again I have processed plenty of big tough looking guys who were crying their eyes out because the officer used a little baby bottle of the stuff. I know your cousin's friend's father spray's the stuff on his steak before he eats it and I know about how you stayed in the gassing chamber during basic longer than anyone, but trust me, I have seen what I have seen. If it wasn't effective officers wouldn't carry it.

As far as spray goes, I've used it, I've had it used on me, and, yes, I've been to the "gassing" (gas) chamber on more than one occasion. The concentration of the crystals of CS used in the gas chamber in no way correlates to the use of pepper spray on the streets. I've seen more officers over come by the affects than the individuals they intended its use. Something about the use in combat versus the use in training. And, not all officers in every department carry it.

As far as the John Wayne attitude about a security position goes there is no need for it. You are in a business. You are considered to be professional by your employers. Other than skate boarders and people that showed up to apply for a job and don't know their way out I doubt you should be looking into many extreme circumstances. If for some reason your company is at risk for being attacked than I am more than sure that they would already have a nationally operated security company working for them.

I don't even know where to start with this except to tell you to try looking at recent events then working back.

When you sign on for ANY security position the first thing they teach you is to call the cops. Don't question first, don't run to your gun closet, don't sharpen your knife or get out your exploding tipped arrows. You call the cops. You are taught that when it is an extreme situation that you are in no way to negotiate or interfear. You observe and wait for the proper authorities to arrive. If you don't believe me, call your local securitas or brinks company. They will repeat that.

Again, by this statement, your mind-set is simply of the rent-a-cop mentality. You really have no grasp of what it is to be the chief of security of any type installation. Which is why the guys of the nuclear regulatory commission (of which I've trained and trained with), CDC, and other agencies employ folks a little more proficient than the Brinks group. The only thing you have expalined so far is uniformed 911 operators. Company or institutional security forces are a little different.

But then again, having been fromer LEO, former member of Hostage Rescue, former Marine, Police Defensive / Offensive Tactics instructor, having written and implemented the first SOP's for the Ship's Self Defense Force for the USS Inchon, having introduced and taught the first SOP's for hostage rescue on mass transit vehicles to 2nd Force Recon, 2nd FSSG, 2nd MarDiv, and battle skills instructors, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about and you do.
 
Last edited:
LenS said:
Derek,

The perp was "Mucko" and the location was up in the Wilmington area. It is a "campus" type setting industrial park.

I served some legal papers for Scrivener up there (different building I think but same park) and it was sort of an odd feeling knowing that this was the location of that particular event.

FWIW, It was Michael "Mucko" McDermott, it was Edgewater Technology, and it was in Wakefield, MA.

They evacuated employees into the nearby Catholic school, where my wife's aunt works...

Just my little "Six Degrees of Separation" from madmen... ;)
 
FWIW, It was Michael "Mucko" McDermott, it was Edgewater Technology, and it was in Wakefield, MA.

They evacuated employees into the nearby Catholic school, where my wife's aunt works...

Just my little "Six Degrees of Separation" from madmen... ;)
At lunch with a former coworker/friend from 2006 forward, I find he was a coworker of McDermott at DuraCell. He mentioned he was over to his place one day and saw an “AR” behind the door. That was before McDermott started having “issues”.

He’s thinking of getting a FID Card and LTC - his DL says Boston, MA. Still an uphill battle? I’m a NH Resident so have little to offer him in advice…but I’ll be a reference.
 
FWIW, It was Michael "Mucko" McDermott, it was Edgewater Technology, and it was in Wakefield, MA.

They evacuated employees into the nearby Catholic school, where my wife's aunt works...

Just my little "Six Degrees of Separation" from madmen... ;)
My wife worked at a company upstairs from Edgewater Tech. She was there the day it went down.
 
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