Does a C&R seller need to see your LTC in addition to your C&R licence?

[milktree]

I just had a seller in another state require a copy of my LTC in addition to my C&R before he'd ship me a pre '67 rifle.

My understanding since the FFL03 is a Federal licence, nothing else is required for a shipper to comply with Federal laws. (and MA laws don't apply to anyone out of state)

Obviously a MA resident needs to actually have a valid LTC, but the shipper shouldn't care about that, especially since the Feds won't give you an FFL03 if you don't have an LTC (you have to comply with all local laws).

Am I missing something, or is the seller?

 

[Picton]

I usually send mine whether they ask me to or not. ID is ID from my perspective, and folks from outside MA can be skittish about shipping. If the LTC calms them down, it's a small price to pay; I have to send proof of age, anyway.

 

[Rockrivr1]

At least he'll ship it after seeing your LTC. A lot of online sellers of C&Rs will not ship to MA no matter what you send them.

 

[01SVTvert]

Considering you must have the LTC to be in compliance with MASS law, not federal law (FFL), the seller seems to be covering his bases. A FFL holder (dealer) is supposed to make sure that the firearm complies with laws in the state it is going to (that's why you can't legally buy AWB rifles out of state) and I am not aware of anything that would override this by having a C&R.

Ex: ATF will not complete a dealer transfer of NFA items unless you also send in a LTC even for a dealer.

 

[milktree]

Considering you must have the LTC to be in compliance with MASS law, not federal law (FFL), the seller seems to be covering his bases. A FFL holder (dealer) is supposed to make sure that the firearm complies with laws in the state it is going to (that's why you can't legally buy AWB rifles out of state) and I am not aware of anything that would override this by having a C&R.

A C&R *IS* an FFL. It's an FFL03 That's why you have one, so you can get shipments directly.

 

[mac1911]

Considering you must have the LTC to be in compliance with MASS law, not federal law (FFL), the seller seems to be covering his bases. A FFL holder (dealer) is supposed to make sure that the firearm complies with laws in the state it is going to (that's why you can't legally buy AWB rifles out of state) and I am not aware of anything that would override this by having a C&R.

Ex: ATF will not complete a dealer transfer of NFA items unless you also send in a LTC even for a dealer.

correct and you wont get a FFL03 with out being in compliance with local and state license requirements.

 

[milktree]

correct and you wont get a FFL03 with out being in compliance with local and state license requirements.

That's my point. The LTC *should* be totally irrelevant, because the FFL03 is proof that state and local laws *are* being followed.

Just like it's stupid to have to get a background check for private sales, since simply having an LTC is proof that you're not a bad person ('cuz the fuz will come and take it the instant there's cause)

It sounds like my initial assertion that the seller is just being extra double super careful (paranoid), but is not actually required by any law or regulation to get a copy of my LTC.

 

[45collector]

I have had similar experiences buying from Gunbroker and Gunboards. No biggy to me, just provide the LTC and move on.

 

[milktree]

I have had similar experiences buying from Gunbroker and Gunboards. No biggy to me, just provide the LTC and move on.

That's what I did.. I just want to know what is law, what is FUD, and what is Massprudance.

 

[mac1911]

That's what I did.. I just want to know what is law, what is FUD, and what is Massprudance.

Law does not matter much when the seller just wants what they want to make a deal go through. Same reason vendors just refuse to sell to ma.
Its not because of written law they decide on their policies what they will or will not do.
I lost my email response from midway on their policy vs actual law stance. It was pretty good and they went into a tid bit on how well their legal staff knows the laws of each state and how they decide what policies they will follow for their best interest as a business.

 

[Hardwired]

Some sellers just refuse to ship anything to an 03 regardless of state and curio, relic, and some cases antique.

 

[KBCraig]

It is illegal for anyone, even FFLs, to transfer a firearm to a resident of another state if they are not able to legally receive that firearm in their state of residence. If you live in a state that requires government permission to even own a gun, no licensee is going to put his FFL at risk just to sell to you.

 

[45collector]

If you live in a state that requires government permission to even own a gun, no licensee is going to put his FFL at risk just to sell to you.

Um, what? A MA resident with a LTC and a C&R is perfectly legal in receiving C&R eligible guns, shipped right to their door, from out of state FFL's (be it dealers or other collectors). Maybe you're one of those people that believes a C&R is completely useless in MA (I am living proof that it isn't), or I'm misunderstanding what you said.

 

[milktree]

It is illegal for anyone, even FFLs, to transfer a firearm to a resident of another state if they are not able to legally receive that firearm in their state of residence. If you live in a state that requires government permission to even own a gun, no licensee is going to put his FFL at risk just to sell to you.

A C&R *IS* and FFL. It's just limited to receiving C&R guns. The Feds won't issue an FFL03 to someone in MA unless they have an LTC (because of the "must follow all local laws and ordinances" bit)

 

[CrackPot]

Arguing the nuisances of what is legal, implied legal, maybe legal, etc is verbal masturbation. In the end, the person you are doing the transaction with gets to decide under what terms they will do the transaction. Similarly you also get to decide your terms for the transaction. If you don't agree with one another and cannot find common ground, move on.

The abundance of caution is not an unreasonable position to take WRT to the ATF. Not fully understanding every states gun laws is also not something you should expect. The consequences for being wrong in either case can ruin your life.

 

[milktree]

Arguing the nuisances of what is legal, implied legal, maybe legal, etc is verbal masturbation. In the end, the person you are doing the transaction with gets to decide under what terms they will do the transaction. Similarly you also get to decide your terms for the transaction. If you don't agree with one another and cannot find common ground, move on.

The abundance of caution is not an unreasonable position to take WRT to the ATF. Not fully understanding every states gun laws is also not something you should expect. The consequences for being wrong in either case can ruin your life.

Does anyone here understand what I was asking?

Seriously.

I'm asking about what the law actually says; not what I should expect, or if it's worth it to cave, or if they're being jerks.

I'm literally asking about the nuisances of what is legal as the law is written. That's it.

I already know:
- a lot of dealers are spooked by Mass. stupidity
- a lot of dealers are good people who would rather be safe than make a mistake
- a lot of dealers don't know the law, so they do what they think will cover their asses.

 

[Emoto]

MA has decided that mailorder transactions take place in MA. Not via statute, AFAICT, but by declaration by the AG. In MA, you must show the seller your LTC in order to buy anything. Therefore, the out of state mailorder seller must see your LTC, despite what we may think of the AG's opinion.

 

[Len-2A Training]

A C&R *IS* and FFL. It's just limited to receiving C&R guns. The Feds won't issue an FFL03 to someone in MA unless they have an LTC (because of the "must follow all local laws and ordinances" bit)

Question: Do you think that if your LTC expired, you decided not to renew, etc. that BATFE notifies you to turn in your C&R FFL? AFAIK they only check that you have one when you apply and don't track your status over the 3 year period.

Not fully understanding every states gun laws is also not something you should expect. The consequences for being wrong in either case can ruin your life.

Agree with you on principle however BATFE used to send books (then CDs) to EVERY FFL including one on sales/possession of guns in every state/territory/city ordinances included. The fact that no dealer FFL I've ever talked with has ever burst the plastic wrap on the book/CD just means that they are lazy and don't care to be informed. You folks ask questions of me all the time and if I don't know something, I go and look it up . . . not an unreasonable expectation of a dealer (or C&R FFL) as well.

Feds (probably Fed Reg-CFR) require a FFL to verify that possession would be legal where the new proposed owner resides. I've never seen an exception for a C&R gun or C&R FFL. So IMNSHO it does fall on the seller to verify the LTC status of the buyer in addition to the swapping of C&R FFLs.

MA has decided that mailorder transactions take place in MA. Not via statute, AFAICT, but by declaration by the AG. In MA, you must show the seller your LTC in order to buy anything. Therefore, the out of state mailorder seller must see your LTC, despite what we may think of the AG's opinion.

True, but it really doesn't hold any water unless the seller signed a consent decree or is scared of the AG. Someone selling a "one off" will never hear anything from our AG, they will only go after dealers/distributors as that looks best in press conferences and news releases.

 

[Picton]

Does anyone here understand what I was asking?

Seriously.

I'm asking about what the law actually says; not what I should expect, or if it's worth it to cave, or if they're being jerks.

I'm literally asking about the nuisances of what is legal as the law is written. That's it.

I already know:
- a lot of dealers are spooked by Mass. stupidity
- a lot of dealers are good people who would rather be safe than make a mistake
- a lot of dealers don't know the law, so they do what they think will cover their asses.

You seem upset.

Relax. I think the overriding message of this thread is "nobody knows for sure, because MA gun law changes at the whim of the executive, not the legislative branch."

That might well be the only clear answer possible.

MA gun statutes, as written, are one thing, and you can look all that up as easily as the rest of us can. But if it was that simple, you wouldn't have needed to ask. The fact that you did, and that none of the dozen or so answers has satisfied you, might suggest that perhaps there really isn't a good answer.

Which is probably the way MA wants it. So listen to your conscience, do your best to follow your understanding of the law, and hope for the best. Or move to another state and quit worrying.

 

[KBCraig]

Um, what? A MA resident with a LTC and a C&R is perfectly legal in receiving C&R eligible guns, shipped right to their door, from out of state FFL's (be it dealers or other collectors). Maybe you're one of those people that believes a C&R is completely useless in MA (I am living proof that it isn't), or I'm misunderstanding what you said.

Okay, I'll sum it up: the sender must know what is legal in MA. If he's in a gun-friendly state, all he knows is that everything is illegal in MA, and it's not worth his time, money, or possible freedom to know the difference.

 

[milktree]

Question: Do you think that if your LTC expired, you decided not to renew, etc. that BATFE notifies you to turn in your C&R FFL? AFAIK they only check that you have one when you apply and don't track your status over the 3 year period.

I have no idea. I assumed that MA informs *EVERYONE* when your gun rights go away, because that's the best way to "get guns off the street".

Feds (probably Fed Reg-CFR) require a FFL to verify that possession would be legal where the new proposed owner resides. I've never seen an exception for a C&R gun or C&R FFL. So IMNSHO it does fall on the seller to verify the LTC status of the buyer in addition to the swapping of C&R FFLs.

Do FFL01s have to send their LTCs when dealing with new distributors or FFLs in other states?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I have no idea. I assumed that MA informs *EVERYONE* when your gun rights go away, because that's the best way to "get guns off the street".

Do FFL01s have to send their LTCs when dealing with new distributors or FFLs in other states?

I'm sure that there is no process in place to notify BATFE. As a matter of fact, FRB/EOPS has no idea who has a C&R FFL or not.

No idea, but since shipments are sent to the FFL (business name) not usually a personal name in MA, they may not ask for it.

 

[milktree]

I'm sure that there is no process in place to notify BATFE. As a matter of fact, FRB/EOPS has no idea who has a C&R FFL or not.

OK, so there is an edge case where someone might give up their LTC, but the FFL03 would still appear to be valid.

 

[Len-2A Training]

OK, so there is an edge case where someone might give up their LTC, but the FFL03 would still appear to be valid.

Don Swarz at one time claimed to have a C&R FFL but was refused a LTC bu his PD.

 

[milktree]

Don Swarz at one time claimed to have a C&R FFL but was refused a LTC bu his PD.

There's got to be a story behind that...

 

[Len-2A Training]

There's got to be a story behind that...

Sure is. He poked the bear too many times. Ended up arrested for criminal trespass when he refused to leave the PD when ordered to leave, many months in court before charges got dropped. He tried to sue the police and a sitting judge (MGL exempts them from any liability), etc. Don's a piece of work!

 

[ridleyman]

I have had similar experiences buying from Gunbroker and Gunboards. No biggy to me, just provide the LTC and move on.

gee, I just bought a 1944 1911A1 from Gunbroker and nobody gave a flying fuque about what else I had besides the C&R. CA seems to be off limits for everything and everybody. Those rat bastards that run the state will get their comeuppance some day, God willing!

 

[milktree]

Sure is. He poked the bear too many times. Ended up arrested for criminal trespass when he refused to leave the PD when ordered to leave, many months in court before charges got dropped. He tried to sue the police and a sitting judge (MGL exempts them from any liability), etc. Don's a piece of work!

Wow... "piece of work" indeed!

I'd assume he's still considered "unsuitable"....

 

[Len-2A Training]

Wow... "piece of work" indeed!

I'd assume he's still considered "unsuitable"....

He tried to get me to serve his lawsuits to the chief, judge and some officers and I refused. I told him to get the Sheriff's Office to serve them.

When I saw him a few years later I asked him if the Sheriff's Office served his suits and he told me that they refused also, so he served them himself. [MA Rules of Court require an unbiased party serve all legal papers.]

I haven't spoken with him in years and I prefer to keep it that way.

 

[KBCraig]

I assumed that MA informs *EVERYONE* when your gun rights go away, because that's the best way to "get guns off the street".

I've suffered the misfortune of having to decipher NCIC returns from MA. They not only don't inform "everyone", they don't even inform the state, or the jurisdiction, or even each other. Finding out if someone was convicted, and whether it constituted a misdemeanor or felony, always took multiple calls to the court and PD and CA.