Copper Plating Lead Bullets

DukeInFlorida

DukeInFlorida

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Ok, so Jasper's post, with his in-transit HP casting mold got me to thinking:

How about my own plated bullets. I'd love to be able to make plated Hollow Point (HP) bullets. Not that the ones from Berry's aren't cheap, and don't work well. I'd just like to be able to do this all at home. So, I am starting this thread to peruse the working of doing such plating.

314SP129GR005.jpg


Links:
http://www.finishing.com/294/14.shtml

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...ets&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=22347&PN=1

http://www.finishing.com/0200-0399/323.shtml

http://forum.caswellplating.com/electroplating-questions/4473-copper-plating-lead-bullets.html

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=192471

http://www.finishing.com/0000-0199/064.shtml

http://dwb4.unl.edu/Chemistry/labs/LABS15.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pjsLZ5EtXc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF1ls-v7puQ&feature=related

(there are tons of "related videos" for the viewing..)
 
Using some Google power, I found that, as a starter.......

The quick way to make the plating solution (Copper Sulfate - which I also remembered from high school chemistry class) is to buy some granular copper sulfate and mix that with white vinegar. Some homework found that the fastest and cheapest way to get copper sulfate crystals is to go to Home Depot, in the Plumbing Dept, and look for ZEP ROOT KILLER. A one quart container is about $13, and it's virtually PURE copper sulfate crystals (blue in color).

I brought that home, and mixed in some white vinegar, and had myself a neat plating liquid.

I have an old piece of 3/4" pipe that had burst last winter, and cut a piece of that as the ANODE (+) and have a double battery holder that uses "D" batteries, so I will have a 3 volt system.

I've been able to plate FOIL THICKNESS copper onto quarters and dimes in a mere 20 minutes or so. So, I should be able to achieve thick enough plating for bullets in about an hour.

I have some photos that I will post later on. Interesting stuff so far.

The thing you want to GET PLATED needs to be on the - (NEGAITIVE) side, called the CATHODE.

cell2.gif
 
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DukeInMaine said:
Using some Google power, I found that, as a starter.......

The quick way to make the plating solution (Copper Sulfate - which I also remembered from high school chemistry class) is to buy some granular copper sulfate and mix that with white vinegar. Some homework found that the fastest and cheapest way to get copper sulfate crystals is to go to Home Depot, in the Plumbing Dept, and look for ZEP ROOT KILLER. A one quart container is about $13, and it's virtually PURE copper sulfate crystals (blue in color).

I brought that home, and mixed in some white vinegar, and had myself a neat plating liquid.

I have an old piece of 3/4" pipe that had burst last winter, and cut a piece of that as the CATHODE (-) and have a double battery holder that uses "D" batteries, so I will have a 3 volt system.

I've been able to plate FOIL THICKNESS copper onto quarters and dimes in a mere 20 minutes or so. So, I should be able to achieve thick enough plating for bullets in about an hour.

I have some photos that I will post later on. Interesting stuff so far.
Click to expand...

Nice!

I think the way the big manufacturers do it is to tumble lead bullets along with copper ingots in a cyanide solution. Definitely not for the home craftsman.
 
It's been years since I was in a plating plant, but I do remember:
1) They tumble plate in rotating baskets
2) I see mention of copper cyanide being used as the salt solution. I also recall cyanide used to harden tool steel, molten cyanide. Nasty stuff if I recall. Much easier and safer to use the copper sulfate.
3) They use aggressive additions to the plating solution to make the process go faster.
4) They have lots of cleaning tanks as steps before plating, and then tanks for rinsing, neutralizing, etc.
 
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So, here are some preliminary images of what I have done in just a few hours of diddling with this:

Here's the initial setup:
setup.jpg



Here's a few quarters showing how fast this goes. Total time for the two quarters was 15 minutes each!
coins.jpg



Here's a dime that I didn't clean very well prior to the process. I noticed a little "peeling" so I explored it a bit, and see that in 1/2 hour I had deposited quite a bit of "foil thickness" plating. Certainly not enough for a bullet, but encouraging.
dime-foil.jpg




Next was the test to see if the copper would adhere to lead directly. Not a clear picture, but evidence that the process worked on lead. The sample bullet was one of the bullets we did at the Lead casting Workshop last Fall. I think those are from Bob_J's mold.
bulletresults.jpg



Finally, a close up of the process tank. I used a Glad gallon sized container. I has to be a non-conducting container.

firstbullet.jpg


I'm going to need some way to later on check the thickness that is achieved.
The nice thing about copper plating seems to be (from all the reading I have done in the past couple of days) is that it:
1) It only requires room temperature (nickle plating, for example, requires almost boiling water temperature, and of course, different solution chemicals)
2) It only requires low voltage, 1 1/2 to 3 volts. In fact, most of the reading suggests that it will damage the quality of the copper if done at too high a voltage. I may even be pushing things with the 3 volts.
3) The raw materials are simple and cheap, and easy to find.
 
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Be careful, the plating adds to the size (diameter) of the bullets. This could potentially be very dangerous when shooting!
 
Here's an update:

Voltage matters.....

At one and a half volts ( a single "D" size battery), the plating process needs to be somewhat close, a couple of inches. Any more than that, and the solution isn't able to carry that weak current very far.

At three volts (two "D" batteries, in a battery holder), the process needs to be a bit further away, 4-5 inches.

I found a 7.5 volt transformer from some discarded electronics thing that was long ago forgotten. Hooked that up, and now I have to move the plating process about 8 inches out. Which is good. It tells me that I can now start to work on doing multiples. Will have to fabricate a fixture for the bullets, and arrange the cathode (copper pipe) so that it is equally distant from the bullets, arranged in the fixture.

THOUGHT: While we struggle for "hardness" in a cast bullet, I'm thinking that even a thin plating of copper will achieve a harder surface than you'd ever be able to get even water quenching the bullet. But, because the plating it relatively thin, it won't interfere with the cast lead bullet performance. That is to say, this may not necessarily become a way to make my own BERRY's bullets. But, rather, might be a way to make cast lead bullets (which still have to get lubed, etc) better.
 
Interesting experiment Duke. Have you sized any that you plated? How do weights vary from one to the next, or batch to batch?
 
No, haven't sized any. Just fooling around with the plating process itself for now. I have plated all sorts of things. Even re-plated a penny! hahaha

The key to consistancy will be to do the batches all the same amount of time and voltage.

I'm leaving one bullet in the bath for an hour, to see how that goes. If that goes well, I'll try two hours.

Fixxah said:
Interesting experiment Duke. Have you sized any that you plated? How do weights vary from one to the next, or batch to batch?
Click to expand...
 
I'm starting to see that the voltage is too high.

I'm getting a rough, pebbly surface instead of a smooth shiny surface. Some of the follow up reading indicates that the voltage should be at about 1.5 volts for a home plating tank. Slow is the way to go.

I've put a resistor on the 7.5V power supply, and have to locate my multi-meter to measure the output. I'm probably done with this for the day, but will continue to work on things.

I tried putting a small sheet of aluminum foil in the bottom of the bath, placing bullets butt end down on the foil, and turning on the juice. Got a good plating (still too much voltage), but the aluminum foil got all eaten away. I might fabricate up a piece of stainless steel sheet for the mass plating attempt #3.
 
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I left a bullet attached to the heavy duty spring loaded clip and plating all night, hoping to find a solid clump of copper in the morning.

What I found was the clip had completely corroded away, and the electro-plating had ceased.

I started off with white vinegar with copper sulfate, per a suggestion in several places on the web.

I don't have any way of testing, but I am guessing that through electrolysis, the vinegar in the presence of the copper sulfate, turned into sulfuric acid, which is basically battery acid.

I'll dump the remainder of this batch of liquid on an old stump (which is what the ZEP product was sold as anyways), and start fresh with copper sulfate in just water.

I think they believed (on the web) that the vinegar would allow the copper sulfate to dissolve faster. However, I already know that by adding the crystals to hot water, they will dissolve just fine.

So, the next phase is crystals is just plain tap water, and see how that goes. Off to Radio Shack for more clips.
 
You might consider using distilled water instead of tap water. Tap water typically has a lot of other ions (i.e., magnesium, calcium) that could compromise the plating process.

I would also use the transformer with a voltage divider to get the correct voltage...this will provide a steady current unlike the batteries unless you hook up several in parallel to boost the current.

Good luck.

-MS
 
Looks like a nice set-up. Note they are using a current-controlled process...the exact setting will depend on the geometry of the tank and solution concentration and will need to be experimentally determined for each configuration. You might be able to pick up a cheap current-controlled power supply from a supplier of used lab equipment.

-MS
 
THis is one of the coolest threads I have seen in a while. How thick does the plating need to be? Would plating allow you to use a softer alloy?
 
Even with the factory plating that companies like Rainier and Berrys do, they still suggest that you load to something like lead bullet data. Or, if you foray off in the direction of FMJ style bullets, that you keep the speed under a limit of approx 1200 fps.

I don't know how much plating is required, or know that I would have any way to even measure it, other than in terms of thickness/time.

I would think that even a thin coating of copper would be superior to plain cast lead.

While thin copper plate would still require lubrication, and a thicker amount would eliminate that need, the style of bullet would play a role if going for non-lubricated. For example: Micro-grooves (tumble lube grooves) would probably work better than the thick bees wax type lube grooves.

That's all for later development, since I'm still working on documenting and developing a process for the plating.

I'l hoping to eventually develop a rotating drum type plating process, similar to factory plating, which would allow you to place several hundred cast bullets in a drum, turn on the switch, and come back after a period of time, with the bullets plating themselves perfectly. That's a long ways off at this point. It might even require developing a casting mold or lead swaging system that creates non-lube groove bullets.

coastie said:
THis is one of the coolest threads I have seen in a while. How thick does the plating need to be? Would plating allow you to use a softer alloy?
Click to expand...
 
Duke... seems like too much effort with too little to gain. The reason they came out with plated/jacketed bullets in the first place was to eliminate the leading in the barrel and to be able to run them faster. I wouild't worry about them being oversized unless you left them in the bath for a long time. We're probably talking .001 of an inch. I would be more concerned with copper build up in the barrel. The electrolysis process you are using puts on a very soft thin coat of copper, much softer than a true jacket. I do commend your effort though, you really are putting a lot of thought and time into your project. It really piqued my interest. Windsor Locks Gunner
 
I've been busy with work, and prepping for Christmas, and haven't had much time available for the plating project.

What I am reading, however, is that the deposit rates for plating copper are pretty damned fast! I could get a fairly thick coat (several thousanths) in a short amount of time.

Just figured one thing out.

The addition of acid to the copper sulfate acts to speed up the dissolving of the donor copper. You can only move the copper through the plating solution as fast as you can get it off the donor. So, when I tried the plating tank with only water and copper sulfate, the plating rate was horrible.

When I used vinegar, it was much faster, I just can't stand the smell of vinegar like that.

One site suggests sulfuric acid (battery acid), which I can get at the auto store. Supposedly, it works well with the copper sulfate.

If anyone here has any formal plating training and or experience, and can chime in to reduce the learning curve, it would be appreciated.

The goal of this exercise is to not replace plated or FMJ bullets.

It's to make as-cast bullets better. I'm envisioning as-cast bullets, copper plated, and then coated with Alox type material (White label only, thanks Bob_J, for the source of this!!), in such a manner that I can shoot thousands of rounds without having to wipe lead from the barrel. My best efforts with just as-cast lead, with Alox, require a fast scrub between 500-600 rounds. I'm using my 9mm Beretta as the example.

If I can develop a system for 9mm, I'll take that to .40, .45 ACP, and then eventually to gas checked rifle rounds.I'm thinking maybe installing gas check, and then plating.

If it will also increase accuracy (which it should, if the sizing is handled properly), all the better.

I'll have more time again after the holidays.

Windsor Locks Gunner said:
Duke... seems like too much effort with too little to gain. The reason they came out with plated/jacketed bullets in the first place was to eliminate the leading in the barrel and to be able to run them faster. I wouild't worry about them being oversized unless you left them in the bath for a long time. We're probably talking .001 of an inch. I would be more concerned with copper build up in the barrel. The electrolysis process you are using puts on a very soft thin coat of copper, much softer than a true jacket. I do commend your effort though, you really are putting a lot of thought and time into your project. It really piqued my interest. Windsor Locks Gunner
Click to expand...
 
??????????

since I am shooting lead rifle bullets at 1680fts I dont see the reason for this.
if its going faster you should use gas checks.
what your doing is interesting,but it was done many yrs ago and dropped.might have been before you were born.there was alot done in past that has been forgotten.plating kits were sold not to long ago.to much effort
for little if any advantage.
 
Before ***I*** was born????
[laugh2][rofl][laugh2][rofl][laugh2]

Heck, I have shoes older than most of them here.

My foray into casting bullets is rather recent (within the past few years.)

Before that I melted lots of lead for diver belt weights, and fishing weights.

Not new to lead, but new to lead bullets.

I am still going to develop a plating system for bullets. I like wasting time..... I'm just about an expert at it. Maybe I should write a book on that subject also....

WILDCATT said:
since I am shooting lead rifle bullets at 1680fts I dont see the reason for this.
if its going faster you should use gas checks.
what your doing is interesting,but it was done many yrs ago and dropped.might have been before you were born.there was alot done in past that has been forgotten.plating kits were sold not to long ago.to much effort
for little if any advantage.
Click to expand...
 
I guess if you still have to lube I dont see the benefit over good quality cast bullets. If this gets you out of lubing or allows you to push velocities higher than I can see a benefit. It is an interesting experiment and I look forward to more info. Anything that helps reduce our reliance on outside components helps.
 

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