CCW at Big E Show

[loiosh]

I am going to the Big E show this weekend. Can I CCW? Any prohibitions?

 

[Moderator]

You will probably be asked to check your gun at the doors. They will most likely take your ammo and give it back to you upon leaving. If asked or posted you must comply by law.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You will probably be asked to check your gun at the doors. They will most likely take your ammo and give it back to you upon leaving. If asked or posted you must comply by law.

Not to advocate violation of any social norms, but could you advise as to the chapter and section of law to which you refer?

 

[Moderator]

I am sorry, Let me clarify (hope the hole don't get deeper). If it is posted you must comply or you can be asked to leave. I believe a violation of this can result being charged with trespassing with a dangerous weapon.

 

[jhrosier]

I am going to the Big E show this weekend. Can I CCW? Any prohibitions?

Your guns will be checked at the door, to make sure they are unloaded, and then secured with a nylon tie.
You may randomly be asked to show the contents of any bag or parcel that you are carrying.
No live ammo of any kind is allowed in the building. Bringing in live ammo is considered trespass.
Also, no firearms are allowed to leave the building except through the main entrance. The ammo vendor is outside the side entrance. You will not be able to visit the ammo dealers if you are openly carrying a firearm, unless you store your guns in the car first, then return.
Also, you may be directed to park a considerable distance from the hall, unless you arrive very early.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Law question

addidental dupe removed

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Law question

Is there an attorney on this forum who can tell us if the concept of algorithmic trespass exists in MA law (ie, "You're trespassing if you don't follow specific conditions"). I'm not referring to a private proiperty owner's near absolute right to order someone to leave, but to the ability to actually have someone who has expressed willingness to leave arrested for trespass because they violated a condition of entry (other than, of course, failure to pay any required admission).

If this is indeed supported by law, it would enable private businesses to give a posted "code of conduct" the force of criminal statutes simply by defining a violation to be "trespass". If true it would be possible, for example, for a movie theatre to post a "posession of outside food is trespass" and have their detail officer arrest anyone caught with contraband snacks - even if that person were willing to ditch the food and/or leave.

It's really just a theoretical question, since the concept of "not a suitable person" is well enshrined in law.

 

[JonJ]

I'm not an attorney but from a practical standpoint, I'd have the property agent, in this case the lessee, inform you in person of their rules/conditions and give you the option to comply with the rule or leave. If you refused, you'll be arrested.
I don't believe that you'd find any officer that would arrest based on your scenario if the person in question was willing to leave.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Big-E

I don't believe that you'd find any officer that would arrest based on your scenario if the person in question was willing to leave.

This gets to the essence of my question. The Big-E's claim is that an arrest will be made even if the person in this situation expresses a willingness to leave.

The concept started in TX where a DA issued a statement that "carrying in violation of a posted sign is the crime of armed criminal trespass" (I believe TX law makes a differention between armed and unarmed trespass). To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever figured out if that was really the case but the legislator added provision 30.06 (yes, really - 30.06) giving such signs force of law if bilingual and of a particular size.

 

[matt]

This gets to the essence of my question. The Big-E's claim is that an arrest will be made even if the person in this situation expresses a willingness to leave.

Where do they make this claim? Is it on the web site?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I'm with Jon, our PD never arrests someone for trespass unless person refuses to leave/comply after being told verbally or notified in writing prior to the event. This is also how it is taught in the Academy.

The promoter being referred to is from NY and has NO website or Email address that I'm aware of. They post a sign as previously described at all the shows that they do. This sign is as effective as the sign in a grocery store parking lot claiming that they aren't responsible for any damage to vehicles by their carts. If you believe that one ask me to send you a scan of the ~$1000 check I received from Big Y Supermarkets last year!

The signs are a very effective "tool" in scaring people into blind compliance. They also work in scaring people into NOT filing claims for damage (i.e. the supermarkets and commercial parking lots), so they are worth their weight in gold to the owners/promoters. They are meaningless in a court of law!

As another example: As I left the cinemas on Rte. 9 ~Westboro (the one behind Pizzeria Uno on the Westbound side), I noted a sticker that was legal-sized (8.5x14) on the exit door. It was a "corporate sign" that no doubt is on every one of their theaters across the country. There was a gun w/red circle and slash thru it on said sticker. Upon reading it (and it was tiny print . . . lots of forbidden actions at these cinemas) it stated that concealed carry even with a permit was "illegal" in their cinema. I smiled and patted my CCW as I walked away from the theater!

 

[JonJ]

I have to add, that if the property agent were adamant in pushing the issue, I would still refuse to arrest but advise "I'll document the incident and you are more than welcome to go to the local district courthouse and take out your own complaint".

 

[loiosh]

I Went To The Show Today

I went to the show this morning and had no problem carrying. There were no signs, no warnings, nothing to indicate that CCW was not permitted. I heard a couple of the show employees talking about ammo not being allowed in the main part of the show but there were no warning signs. There were a couple of LEOs at the entrance who were checking firearms - making sure they were unloaded and putting zip-ties through the action so the gun would not work. The people they were checking seemed to have mostly long guns or hand guns that they were trying to sell at the show. I just walked right on by and enjoyed the show. I also did notice a couple of other people CCW while I was there.

 

[TY43215]

How would anyone know?? You asked about "Concealed Carry". Isn't it a moot point?

If you are supposedly carrying "Concealed" and someone sees the firearm, I guess it wasn't concealed was it.

As far as Trespass goes, Here is the statute:

Chapter 266: Section 120. Entry upon private property after being forbidden as trespass; prima facie evidence; penalties; arrest; tenants or occupants excepted


Section 120. Whoever, without right enters or remains in or upon the dwelling house, buildings, boats or improved or enclosed land, wharf, or pier of another, or enters or remains in a school bus, as defined in section 1 of chapter 90, after having been forbidden so to do by the person who has lawful control of said premises, whether directly or by notice posted thereon, or in violation of a court order pursuant to section thirty-four B of chapter two hundred and eight or section three or four of chapter two hundred and nine A, shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days or both such fine and imprisonment. Proof that a court has given notice of such a court order to the alleged offender shall be prima facie evidence that the notice requirement of this section has been met. A person who is found committing such trespass may be arrested by a sheriff, deputy sheriff, constable or police officer and kept in custody in a convenient place, not more than twenty-four hours, Sunday excepted, until a complaint can be made against him for the offence, and he be taken upon a warrant issued upon such complaint.

This section shall not apply to tenants or occupants of residential premises who, having rightfully entered said premises at the commencement of the tenancy or occupancy, remain therein after such tenancy or occupancy has been or is alleged to have been terminated. The owner or landlord of said premises may recover possession thereof only through appropriate civil proceedings.

Big E has a permannt sign against all types of weapons including knives not being allowed on their property. I believe the notice is sufficient in the eyes of PD Springfield to make an arrest if there is a problem. (I stress, IF THERE IS A PROBLEM)

By statute, they are not obligated to arrest it states only that they "May" arrest. There is a lot of latitude in the section so advice you get here will vary from town to town, city to city.

If you have any apprehension about someone seeing your firearm or knife, you would be better to find a more suitable type of carry or make the decision not to go armed.

As for me, I have violated the sign at the Big E for years when going to the Exposition. It is my choice and if they were to make me leave after being so careless as to allow one of their security people to see what I am carrying, I deserve to be sent home.

regards,

 

[Len-2A Training]

Folks,

I don't think that it is wise to admit that you violated their rules on the Internet. Personal experience has proven to me that sometimes someone prints out a message/thread and hands it to someone involved who then takes offense (and may threaten legal action) about what has been posted!

If one chooses to violate the rules or laws, it is probably more prudent to keep that information to yourself!

A word to the wise should be sufficient here! [And no, I am not saying this as a Moderator, just as someone who has learned a few lessons in life the hard way!]

If a poster here "spotted someone CCW" then by definition, it wasn't CCW!! If you spotted it one of the promoters, their security folks or one of their detail officers could also spot it!

They used to allow the vendors to carry openly or concealed. One of the promoters (Carole's Husband I believe) used to openly carry in a shoulder holster. I know of some NDs that occurred at some of their shows and I suspect that their insurance company had something to say about the current policy!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Big E

Where do they make this claim? Is it on the web site?

There were multiple reliable reports of a sign to this effect in previous years.