Best example of harmless object Felony

[jcr]

On the longest one day thread of this forum (are stats kept? I just guessing), an attempt was made to analogize to a harmless "gun" crime. The failed attempt was loose ammo in a lended car.

So far, even in MA, amunition is not required to be kept locked up. An FID+ is required, but penalty is, I think, only civil.

But...

A "high capacity amunition feeding device" does require an LTC-A to possess. If a juvenile (under 18y) can get access to yours, I think the penaly is 10y.

We are talking about a small metal box with a spring! No gun nearby. No ammuntion. It is illegal to possess, and a felony if you get caught.

There might be better examples, but the one I show to people is nice WW2 M1 Carbine box magazine that holds 15 rounds. If you have one and do not keep it locked up -- you are a felon.

Whatever the "right to keep arms" means, nobody says a metal box with a spring is an "arm". You don't need one, and any law banning it has a rational basis and will be upheld.

Leave one in your car, and when your non-LTC-A wife takes your car -- she is a felon. It's the law, and her behavior is illegal (there is no mens re requirment).

 

[Baystatesuks]

On the longest one day thread of this forum (are stats kept? I just guessing), an attempt was made to analogize to a harmless "gun" crime. The failed attempt was loose ammo in a lended car.

So far, even in MA, amunition is not required to be kept locked up. An FID+ is required, but penalty is, I think, only civil.

But...

A "high capacity amunition feeding device" does require an LTC-A to possess. If a juvenile (under 18y) can get access to yours, I think the penaly is 10y.

We are talking about a small metal box with a spring! No gun nearby. No ammuntion. It is illegal to possess, and a felony if you get caught.

There might be better examples, but the one I show to people is nice WW2 M1 Carbine box magazine that holds 15 rounds. If you have one and do not keep it locked up -- you are a felon.

Whatever the "right to keep arms" means, nobody says a metal box with a spring is an "arm". You don't need one, and any law banning it has a rational basis and will be upheld.

Leave one in your car, and when your non-LTC-A wife takes your car -- she is a felon. It's the law, and her behavior is illegal (there is no mens re requirment).

I think you mean mens rea (guilty mind). Not sure how willing a DA would be to prosecute you if you didn't know a large capacity feeding device (LCFD) was present. Assuming you had no reasonable basis for believing a LCFD is present when one actually was, it would be tough to "possess" it without knowing it was even there.

 

[drgrant]

There might be better examples, but the one I show to people is nice WW2 M1 Carbine box magazine that holds 15 rounds. If you have one and do not keep it locked up -- you are a felon.

Well, not if "you" have the appropriate license.

There is no requirement in MA to "lock up" LCAFDs. That said, if you don't, and someone else has access to them (with an LTC holder NOT being in attendance) they could get hung on a constructive possession charge, not much different than the "guy cleaning his guns and has a heart attack" scenario.

IMO the whole "LCAFD" bullshit should be repealed, or at least amended to say that disqualified individuals (eg felons) cannot possess them, at least that way it wouldn't trip up an average person.

-Mike

 

[jcr]

I think you mean mens rea (guilty mind).

Sorry, typo. I was so concerned with italicizing the foreign language

Not sure how willing a DA would be to prosecute you if you didn't know a large capacity feeding device (LCFD) was present. Assuming you had no reasonable basis for believing a LCFD is present when one actually was, it would be tough to "possess" it without knowing it was even there.

Yeah, but with the wrong, prosecutor, wrong defendant, and wrong jury, and one can be screwed over one of the stupidest laws. Maybe they'd just use it to get you to plea to 4 mph over the speed limit whereas without the felony threat, you'd challenge the minimal speeding charge. .All someone who "looks wrong" has to do is "disrespect cop" to get written up.

 

[jcr]

There is no requirement in MA to "lock up" LCAFDs.

Is this worth double checking? My memory was that it was included in the locked storage laws.

I'm not standing firmly on this. I read too many pre-cursor bills that could have been worded differently to know if it was passed into the MGL.

 

[jcr]

Well, not if "you" have the appropriate license [LTC-A for LCAFDs].

I've suggested that this can be used in some people's favor.

There are people who move to MA and have only long guns. Though most PDs issue only LTC-A, to ensure that the new resident gets LTC-A, I suggest they they purchase as cheap as possible LCAFD out of state (no federal laws).

Then the applicant can claim as a "reason" on the app, that he owns a device that requires LTC-A

Then later, if he wants to buy a gun that requires an LTC-A he'll be all set.

 

[drgrant]

Is this worth double checking? My memory was that it was included in the locked storage laws.

Nope, nothing in MGL about "safe storage" of an LCAFD.....

I've suggested that this can be used in some people's favor.

There are people who move to MA and have only long guns. Though most PDs issue only LTC-A, to ensure that the new resident gets LTC-A, I suggest they they purchase as cheap as possible LCAFD out of state (no federal laws).

Then the applicant can claim as a "reason" on the app, that he owns a device that requires LTC-A

Then later, if he wants to buy a gun that requires an LTC-A he'll be all set.

If you're trying to prevent someone from getting hit by a B-rammer, it won't work. You can possess any LCAFD with an LTC-B or better. Even if you cannot own the gun that uses it, someone with an LTC-B, for example, could own Beretta 92FS mags. (And he'd have a reason to do so, too, since many PCCs that LTC-B's can purchase use pistol magazines. )

A better wallhack is to try to make sure the guy owns a large-cap pistol before he moves into the state. It would not surprise me however, though, if some B-rammer towns would go "I don't care how many hi-cap pistols you have, I'm only giving you a B" and not care that their customer will be in violation, eg "that's their problem".

Having the guy your trying to help NOT move into a B-rammer town, is better than all the above. . There are even RED towns which at least issue restricted-As on a
consistent basis.

-Mike

 

[Baystatesuks]

Nope, nothing in MGL about "safe storage" of an LCAFD.....



If you're trying to prevent someone from getting hit by a B-rammer, it won't work. You can possess any LCAFD with an LTC-B or better. Even if you cannot own the gun that uses it, someone with an LTC-B, for example, could own Beretta 92FS mags. (And he'd have a reason to do so, too, since many PCCs that LTC-B's can purchase use pistol magazines. )

A better wallhack is to try to make sure the guy owns a large-cap pistol before he moves into the state. It would not surprise me however, though, if some B-rammer towns would go "I don't care how many hi-cap pistols you have, I'm only giving you a B" and not care that their customer will be in violation, eg "that's their problem".

Having the guy your trying to help NOT move into a B-rammer town, is better than all the above. . There are even RED towns which at least issue restricted-As on a
consistent basis.

-Mike

I would like to see someone with a high cap gun move into a "B-only" town and have the CLEO deny them a class A. Perfect scenario for a "taking" case (assuming no weird background justifying denial of class A).

Somone would have to have the balls to sue though.

 

[vellnueve]

IMO the whole "LCAFD" bullshit should be repealed

Along with a whole bunch of other stuff...

 

[vellnueve]

I would like to see someone with a high cap gun move into a "B-only" town and have the CLEO deny them a class A. Perfect scenario for a "taking" case (assuming no weird background justifying denial of class A).

Somone would have to have the balls to sue though.

Well, your license would still be valid until expiration so any problems you should definitely know at least a few months before the license expires.

 

[KMaurer]

Selling totally innocuous objects that some bureaucrat images to be related to the use of drugs can get you 3 years and a $250 fine from the feds and even more from some states. You can attract serious attention attempting to buy or sell simple lab glassware such as tubing, flasks, test tubes and stoppers. You don't even need springs. While knowledge undoubtedly has limits, there is certainly no limit to insanity.

Ken

 

[Gabe]

...We are talking about a small metal box with a spring!....

A magazine is a more durable Pez dispenser. A Pez dispenser however is more sophisticated than most magazines, what with the hinged top that when opened expels the top piece of candy.