Antique SBR question

[Jcu572]

Hello,
I have a winchester 94 from 1898 that has a junk barrel. It needs no paper work because it is an antique, if I made it an sbr do I need to regester it?

 

[Kevlar]

From the BATFE...

Section 2.2 Antique firearm.

Firearms defined by the NFA as “antique firearms” are not subject to any controls under the NFA.[22] The NFA defines antique firearms based on their date of manufacture and the type of ignition system used to fire a projectile. Any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 that is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition is an antique firearm. Additionally, any firearm using a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type ignition system, irrespective of the actual date of manufacture of the firearm, is also an antique firearm.

NFA firearms using fixed ammunition are antique firearms only if the weapon was actually manufactured in or before 1898 and the ammunition for the firearm is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To qualify as an antique firearm, a fixed cartridge firing NFA weapon must meet both the age and ammunition availability standards of the definition.

Concerning ammunition availability, it is important to note that a specific type of fixed ammunition that has been out of production for many years may again become available due to increasing interest in older firearms. Therefore, the classification of a specific NFA firearm as an antique can change if ammunition for the weapon becomes readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

 

[Jcu572]

thank you,
so my gun is in 38-55 and it will not be an antique to the nfa unless they stop makeing 38-55 all together?

 

[securityboy]

Hello,
I have a winchester 94 from 1898 that has a junk barrel. It needs no paper work because it is an antique, if I made it an sbr do I need to regester it?

In addition to what Kevlar posted, you seem to be missing a key point. If you made it an SBR today you would need to register it, well unless you have a time machine that will take back to some time 1898...IE. the "making" with regard to NFA is new (today when you do it)...

If it was a factory SBR from back then you "might" be fine to replace the barrel with a good one, if you check the C&R list you will see a number of original SBR's that have been removed from NFA.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

In addition to what Kevlar posted, you seem to be missing a key point. If you made it an SBR today you would need to register it, well unless you have a time machine that will take back to some time 1898...IE. the "making" with regard to NFA is new (today when you do it)...

If it was a factory SBR from back then you "might" be fine to replace the barrel with a good one, if you check the C&R list you will see a number of original SBR's that have been removed from NFA.

maybe I am missing it but can you point out where you get your interpretation from?

 

[GSG]

Just keep in mind, according to Mass. law an SBR is a handgun, which requires an LTC to even possess (with very few, very limited exceptions). This also applies to BP, antiques, etc.

 

[terraformer]

maybe I am missing it but can you point out where you get your interpretation from?

He is right, you can't make an SBR where one didn't exist originally. The NFA doesn't work the way the AWB does. I would argue that the replacing of the barrel may also negate the grandfathering but I don't know the NFA well enough. The OP should discuss this with a firearms attorney specializing in the NFA.

 

[MisterHappy]

It may sound like heresy, but a call to the local BATFE branch may be helpful.

A while back I was offered a fixed-cartridge cane gun, which is an "Any Other Weapon" under BATFE rules.

While I was unable to get the "ruling" I wanted, the BATFE folks were very helpful in working through their labrynthine rules.

One of the BATFE people asked, "If you got it, what would you do with it?"

I said, "Are you kidding? I'd cherish it! It's the epitome of a C&R!"

It was my in=mpression that, at least in the C&R side, there are at least a few that appreciate the history of the odder items....

 

[Moderator]

Just keep in mind, according to Mass. law an SBR is a handgun

Can you point me to the MGL that states this? Not saying you're wrong, I just want to see the citation.

 

[Squished]

Can you point me to the MGL that states this? Not saying you're wrong, I just want to see the citation.

I'm not sure you would find that. But you would find that a SBR doesn't meet the definition of a rifle in MA.(a barrel longer than 16")

 

[securityboy]

maybe I am missing it but can you point out where you get your interpretation from?

Its pretty easy, its not an existing "antique SBR" The SBR is being made "today" (not in 1898 or before) when he chops the barrel (or whatever he plans to do) of an antique rifle.

If simply originating from an antique firearm exempted what you did with that rifle from NFA, you'd see all sorts of nifty MG conversions for all those pre-1898 small ring mausers out there, but it doesn't work that way...

It may sound like heresy, but a call to the local BATFE branch may be helpful...

Not really good advice (but on a technicallity) if you want a real ruling, you should not contact the LOCAL ATF branch, you NEED to talk to the Tech branch in DC (or west virginia, where ever they are now...)

 

[Jcu572]

I do not think ill be doing that then. Does anybody know what the value of this gun would be? it is reblued but in overall good condition. the barrel is not tarrible but had a little rust that i removed. Also it is a saddle ring carbine made in 1898

 

[securityboy]

I do not think ill be doing that then. Does anybody know what the value of this gun would be? it is reblued but in overall good condition. the barrel is not tarrible but had a little rust that i removed. Also it is a saddle ring carbine made in 1898

look around on gunbroker and similar sites, that will give a pretty realistic idea of actual selling prices

 

[MisterHappy]

Not really good advice (but on a technicallity) if you want a real ruling, you should not contact the LOCAL ATF branch, you NEED to talk to the Tech branch in DC (or west virginia, where ever they are now...)

Good point - I used the term "ruling" inadvisedly, as it does have a specific meaning in this context.

My point was that with any item that is, may be, or could (through an evil alignment of the stars) be possibly construed to be an NFA item, the only "real" opinion is from the feds.....

I called the local branch, and was directed to the main Technical branch, but I did it to avoid a bunch of mis-directed calls to the main place. The Boston branch, when I told them what I was inquiring about put me to the exact place in VA, or wherever it was....

 

[GSG]

Can you point me to the MGL that states this? Not saying you're wrong, I just want to see the citation.

You can say I'm wrong, I have pretty thick legal skin, Scrivener was one of my law parents.

Check out post #13 in this thread.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/114053-How-to-transfer-blackpowder-rifle./page2

The short answer is MGL 140-121:

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.

MA doesn't rely on the federal standard, since the MGL definitions were written pre-GCA '68. If the barrel is short enough and it shoots, you need an LTC for it. Basically, antique and BP are exempt from many MA laws (transfer, storage and licensing requirements, to name a few), but after GCA 1998 was rammed through in Mass., it became a felony to even possess one without an LTC.

look around on gunbroker and similar sites, that will give a pretty realistic idea of actual selling prices

Yup, just make sure you see what they're actually selling for at a given price; an asking price that is never met isn't a good indicator of value.

 

[dcmdon]

He is right, you can't make an SBR where one didn't exist originally. The NFA doesn't work the way the AWB does. I would argue that the replacing of the barrel may also negate the grandfathering but I don't know the NFA well enough. The OP should discuss this with a firearms attorney specializing in the NFA.

You certainly CAN make an SBR where one didn't exist originally. You use whats commonly called a "Form 1" to make an NFA firearm. You fill out the form. Submit it with CLEO signoff and prints (unless you have a trust, then none of that is necessary) and a check for $200 and then you wait for 3-6 months.

When you get back your form 1 with a stamp on it, you are cleared to hack that thing off, legally.

 

[terraformer]

You certainly CAN make an SBR where one didn't exist originally. You use whats commonly called a "Form 1" to make an NFA firearm. You fill out the form. Submit it with CLEO signoff and prints (unless you have a trust, then none of that is necessary) and a check for $200 and then you wait for 3-6 months.

When you get back your form 1 with a stamp on it, you are cleared to hack that thing off, legally.

He was looking to make it an SBR without the form...

 

[dcmdon]

Oh. Well, thats not gonna fly.