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45-70 trapdoor loads

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copterdoctor

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I finally got around to bringing the Springfield 1884 to the range.
Today's loads were at the minimum for 5744 at 24.3 grains.
Brass is W-W and R-P.
Primers are Federal 210.
Bullets are 405 grain LRN. Thank you Michael Spangler.
Range was 100 yards.
Group size was a bit disappointing. It looked more like a couple rounds of 12 ga 00 buck.
About 20% were keyholes.
There was quite a bit of unburned powder in the barrel and the fired brass.
I think I need to bump up the powder charge a bit to get more stable performance. Max for 5744 in a trapdoor is listed at 27.0 grains.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks,
Jim
 
I have an 1873 and also use 5744 but with a 500 grain Lyman bullet. Do you know that your bullets are the correct diameter for your rifle? Mine are sized to .459 but some of those old rifles need a larger diameter.
 
I shoot both 405 gr and 500 gr bullets in my trapdoor. I find the 500 gr to be more accurate. However, keyholing is often the result of under sized bullets. Have you slugged your bore? Gerrycaruso is right that these old riles can vary in bore diameter quite a bit. I recently acquired an old .50/70 rolling block and when I first shot it I used bullets sized to .512 as in my .50/90 Sharps. At 100 yards I had trouble even getting on the cardboard and when I did they were key holed. The bore slugged out at .515. After getting a .515 sizing die from BACO accuracy improved dramatically. Personally, I doubt it is the powder charge. FWIW I only shoot black powder in my trapdoor.
 
Is that enough powder to fill the case? I'm new to this, but I read that black powder needs to be compressed slightly in order to get good ignition.
 
hey Jim,

did you have any leading.
if you have leading and key holing it could be the bullet are undersized. if no leading you might just need to bump up the speed to stabilize.
 
Michael J. Spangler said:
hey Jim,

did you have any leading.
if you have leading and key holing it could be the bullet are undersized. if no leading you might just need to bump up the speed to stabilize.
Click to expand...
Hi Mike!
I cleaned the rifle after the range trip. I didn't notice lead on the brush or patches. I just looked again and the bore is bright shiny clean.
Gonna slug the bore anyway.
Jim
 
interesting. usually with an undersized bullet you would know for sure that you had a leading issue
let me know what it slugs at.

what type of speed is the 5744 supposed to be giving you at that charge weight?
 
If you're not getting leading after a routine brush and swab, I would be hesitant to think bullet size is the culprit. Are those one of the guns that only has 2 lands? How did it perform at a shorter distance? How has the guns performance with other ammo been? You mention unburned powder - maybe change powders or increase charge? I'm not familiar with 5744 at all, but the boolits you have came from my mold and sizing die that I let Mike borrow for your trade and I have not used anything other than IMR 4198 to hurl them downrange. 30-33 gr is a pretty light charge, maybe worth a try?
 
asp said:
If you're not getting leading after a routine brush and swab, I would be hesitant to think bullet size is the culprit. Are those one of the guns that only has 2 lands? How did it perform at a shorter distance? How has the guns performance with other ammo been? You mention unburned powder - maybe change powders or increase charge? I'm not familiar with 5744 at all, but the boolits you have came from my mold and sizing die that I let Mike borrow for your trade and I have not used anything other than IMR 4198 to hurl them downrange. 30-33 gr is a pretty light charge, maybe worth a try?
Click to expand...

It's 3 land barrel. Slugs measure .4585 to .4590 depending on how I look at it.
This was the first time I fired it. Only 20 rounds, as I didn't know what to expect.
Prior to me, it was in a friend's collection for about 50 years with a broken firing pin.
 
copterdoctor said:
It's 3 land barrel. Slugs measure .4585 to .4590 depending on how I look at it.
This was the first time I fired it. Only 20 rounds, as I didn't know what to expect.
Prior to me, it was in a friend's collection for about 50 years with a broken firing pin.
Click to expand...
3 lands is not very many, but very cool. Either way, out of the realm of anything I've dealt with before. That's about the same size that they drop out of that particular mold. Take a bullet and squish it lengthwise with a hammer to fatten it out. Not much, just enough to definitely make sure it's bigger than the bore, and try again. Also, are you using calipers or a mic? You really ought to use a micrometer for this.

Knob Creek, I would be interested depending on the time frame. I've been too busy to shoot, cast, or reload lately :(
 
I use 12grs of Red Dot behind a 405 cast , I use in my trapdoors and my 1886 , I have found with the trapdoors some times the lighter loads group best !
 
asp said:
If you're not getting leading after a routine brush and swab, I would be hesitant to think bullet size is the culprit. Are those one of the guns that only has 2 lands? How did it perform at a shorter distance? How has the guns performance with other ammo been? You mention unburned powder - maybe change powders or increase charge? I'm not familiar with 5744 at all, but the boolits you have came from my mold and sizing die that I let Mike borrow for your trade and I have not used anything other than IMR 4198 to hurl them downrange. 30-33 gr is a pretty light charge, maybe worth a try?
Click to expand...
I think I will try your loads of IMR 4198.
I went back today and used a 50 yard range.
Still with the 405 grain bullets.
10 rounds with 25.5 grains of 5744.
10 rounds with 26.5 grains of 5744.
Accuracy was still poor and still had keyholes.
Still had a noticeable amount of unburned powder in the barrel.
 
are you crimping heavily? that could probably help with the ignition.

i forgot, do you plan on running BP loads through this?

might take care of all the issues, you know it will be a good load for the gun, should burn well, and the BP is supposed to obturate the bullets much better. the alloy should be soft enough for the application.
 
copterdoctor, I do not know where you are located, but I would be more then happy to share some .45/70 bullets with you. I cast about 10 different bullets for the .45/70. If you would like to try some heavier bullets let me know by PM. Some variety could point a direction.
 
The Goose said:
copterdoctor, I do not know where you are located, but I would be more then happy to share some .45/70 bullets with you. I cast about 10 different bullets for the .45/70. If you would like to try some heavier bullets let me know by PM. Some variety could point a direction.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the offer!
I need to wait a few days. I just dropped off the rifle at Dave Santurri's shop. He's going to check it out to see if there's anything wrong with it.
 
Dave Santurri said I should try bullets sized .460. Anyone know where I might find some of those?
I will also try the different powders suggested here.
Is anyone adding a cotton or tissue paper filler above the powder charge to keep the powder against the primer? Does this help any?
Thanks to everyone for the help.
 
Last edited:
I believe my mold drops .460" boolits. Hollow points are around 335g with gas check. I can only do flat pointed with a ladel. Not sure what those weigh. In Norwood area if you want some to try.

-Proud to be dad every day, a licensed plumber most days, and wish I was a shoemaker on others.
 
I have some .460 bullets from a Lee mold. They are 405 gr. hollow base bullet. Almost an exact replica of the original .45/70 bullet. The alloy is 20:1 (also close to the original). This bullet is designed to obdurate (bump up) when fired to better grab the rifling. If you would like to try it out you are welcome to some. I prefer a heavier bullet in my trapdoor, but in fact the 405 gr. was the original military loading. Let me know.
 
The Goose said:
I have some .460 bullets from a Lee mold. They are 405 gr. hollow base bullet. Almost an exact replica of the original .45/70 bullet. The alloy is 20:1 (also close to the original). This bullet is designed to obdurate (bump up) when fired to better grab the rifling. If you would like to try it out you are welcome to some. I prefer a heavier bullet in my trapdoor, but in fact the 405 gr. was the original military loading. Let me know.
Click to expand...

Tried some of Goose's 460 bullets today.
BINGO !
50 yard group size went from 3 feet with keyholes to 2 1/2 inches with no keyholes.
Powder charges were 25, 26, and 27 grains of 5744. It seemed to like the lighter charges best.
In an effort to minimize unburnt powder in the barrel, I added a tissue paper wad to keep the powder charge tight against the primer. It really didn't help, but I got a neat little snowstorm of tissue bits when I pulled the trigger.
 

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