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Momentum is mass times velocity. Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass times velocity squared.Explain this to me. .380 and 9mm use the same diameter bullet. 380 is lower grain but usually has comparable speeds to a 9mm out of equal length barrel. So their cross section is about the same, their speed is about the same, but added weight makes it the only difference equating to whatever difference in penetration that is present. Even then, we need to make sure we are comparing comparable rounds out of comparable barrels. I need to go re-watch the 9mm intercepter video to see how deep it went in that video.
Explain this to me. .380 and 9mm use the same diameter bullet. 380 is lower grain but usually has comparable speeds to a 9mm out of equal length barrel. So their cross section is about the same, their speed is about the same, but added weight makes it the only difference equating to whatever difference in penetration that is present. Even then, we need to make sure we are comparing comparable rounds out of comparable barrels. I need to go re-watch the 9mm intercepter video to see how deep it went in that video.
Ya, but I aim for the throat.It won’t penetrate deep enough to hit vitals.
I'm aware of that, but people are talking about the step from .380 to 9mm being some big leap in terminal ballistics, but the testing doesn't show that.FBI says you want 12-18” of penetration in calibrated ballistics gel. Not the clear gel. That generally leads to a little more penetration than you’d get in the yellow organic gel.
Though, more recent research indicates you should lean much more towards 18” than 12, and even a little past 18” can be good.
Here are some data:
Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data
Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.www.luckygunner.com
I'm aware of that, but people are talking about the step from .380 to 9mm being some big leap in terminal ballistics, but the testing doesn't show that.
none of them are going to be a perfect analog for flesh, but you can extrapolate enough from penetration tests on 2 blocks made the same way, even if it isn't the FBI stuff.
The penetration on that .380 Interceptor is just about the same as the 9mm Interceptor, which means that extra weight isn't helping it penetrate, in that use-case with that round. Would FMJ perform the same? HP's? …
Weight is 1/5th of the equation, speed is 4/5th when it comes to energy, and they are being dumped in the same distance.
Momentum is mass times velocity. Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass times velocity squared.
More is better. But sometimes less is enough to get the job done.
I don’t think many NESers are willing to take 380 to the chest….or a 22lr.I repeat the second half to people when they say their .45 ACP has "so much more power" than 9mm.
Very little can "get the job done" if put in the right place.
The data show that you have to be much more selective with 380 ammo and you’ll still be getting less expansion. Adequate penetration is more important than expansion diameter, but expansion diameter still helps when you get to the vitals.
Kind of. Sometimes expanding or fragmenting bullets behave slightly differently in the different mediums, regardless of overall penetration. But disregarding that, you’d still need to adjust your expectations. So perhaps instead of 12-18”, you should want 15-21”
I wouldn’t use interceptor as any sort of benchmark. It could easily be that their 9mm version just expands more, which creates a larger surface, which is more surface area that slows the bullet down more, offsetting the heavier mass/momentum.
9mm FMJ will almost certainly penetrate much more than 380 FMJ. If you notice in the link I sent, the 380 bullets that penetrated adequately barely had any expansion. They were effectively FMJ with a very slightly larger meplat. They stopped much shorter than what a 9mm FMJ would. As for HPs, it all depends on that expansion.
It's not a caliber war... just more along the lines of being both critical and careful about gel testing, and what it is you take from it.Not another caliber war again. The Archduke and his wife were killed by .32ACP but the .38 and 9mm didn’t do enough at the Miami shootout. Bella Twin killed a record-sized grizzly with .22 but I don’t see anyone claiming .22 being a bear caliber.
I'll do it. it's .22 LR. Just make sure you hit the plate. Probably get more cut up from the lead splatter.I don’t think many NESers are willing to take 380 to the chest….or a 22lr.
Any takers for 22 cb caps??
Expansion mitigates over-penetration. Any bullet that doesn't exit delivered 100% of its energy on target. Adequate penetration is what, exactly? I know what the FBI said was adequate in their calibrated ballistics gelatin, but even that leaves too many variables. What if you catch a rib first? The sternum? Why 12-18"? They couldn't use a cadaver for "science"? Plenty of corpse donations to science. What's the equivalence? Is 1" of flesh equal to 2" of gel? More? Less? Assuming you don't hit a bone, where's the bullet stop in an average torso? Do lung impacts, which are mostly hollow membranes, mean higher likelihood of passthrough? And should we take the FBI seriously? These are the same tests that led them to conclude .40 was the future at one point. The FBI gel tests are the absolute epitome of "trust me bro".
The Interceptor is a GREAT benchmark, both in terms of performance and testing. You have similar speeds, similar projectiles, with just a 15 grain weight difference. TFM tested the 9mm with 5" and a 3.1" barrel, and the .380 with just a 3.1" barrel. All 3 tests had 8 to 8.5" of penetration with full expansion. That means the Ballistic Machinist did his due diligence for load development to ensure a projectile that works as intended from a variety of barrels within the specified caliber.
Lucky gunner is good for tests within caliber - but because their .380 was tested with a glock 27 with a 3.25" barrel, and the 9mm with tested with a M&Pc with a 4" barrel, you can't compare them together. How much does that affect initial FPS, and additionally, the initial force that creates expansion once it hits the gel? And how is the metallurgy of the projectile made to work in FPS brackets?
Some of those projectiles on LG have only 1 of 5 fully expanded with 0 expansion on the other 4. Is that because the rounds are too slow, or because the metallurgy wasn't tested at slower speeds?
.25's are even smaller, but is weaker than .22 LR. I think if they could have gotten the size smaller for pocket .380's they would have done it, but then they'd be unshootable. Even if they could fit a .380 into a .25 sized pistol, I wouldn't want one and at that extreme small size I'd rather have a revolver anyway. Maybe not an NAA, but something about the size of the H&R Young America.You can go even smaller though:
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I don't think the goal is "as small as possible", is it? Isn't it more of "largest I can fit in my pocket"?
Hey, when you have waves of Moro insurgents bearing down on your line, you’re going to want that extra stopping power!
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I knew a guy that was former CG Reserve and felt he was .mil. This was 30 years ago. He said the US Military invented the 45 Assippee to stop hopped up Viet Cong when they'd attack in the jungles of Vietnam.
I just nodded. It wasn't worth the argument. LOL. What 1911 meant never crossed his mind. LOL
Same guy refused to do armed guard duty of vessels. LOL. At times, the CG needed to have armed guards for something. I forget what. "I'm not carrying a gun. Period!" But he was ex-military. LOL. As long as it suited him, he was one or the other.
Yes. Even the 365 is too big for pocket carry.That's cool that it works for you but imo even a 43 is too big for a lot of people for that application.
I am not a 380 fan, but is this accurate?It won’t penetrate deep enough to hit vitals.
because the glock 42 is frickin ADORABLE.... it's like a little tiny baby glock380 - why?
I am not a 380 fan, but is this accurate?
Where is the data?
Edit: I jsut read the article a few posts above. 380 doesn't look horrible.
just.Yes. Even the 365 is too big for pocket carry.
Unless you dress like a clown (many here do).
It is not about being taller.just.
be.
Taller.
If I was wearing those slacks, the only method of carry would be Mexican!’just gotta beat up an emo kid, steal his giant pants... and then you can pocket carry a WWII 1911
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