Zero Hour Arms - moving on...

[drgrant]

Mid level distributors (2 step distributors) are needed in that industry. Most shops are small mom and pop operations, they can not buy enough volume, of a single manufacturer, in a single order to make any sense, done properly the 2 step distributor sells them small amounts from 20 different manufactures the sum of which totals a decent order.

The real problem is that the manufacturers pricing structure does not allow the 2 stepper to be competitive to the customer in comparison to the big boys buying direct.

Smart manufacturers understand this, and want to see their product sold competitively all the way down the sales channel. They structure a pricing scheme so that all end retailers are capable of selling their product in a "competitive price range" while providing reasonable margins along the way.

Yeah but it never pans out that way. By the time "joe's gun shop" gets the goods they're usually overpriced, or on a good day, there isn't much room left. This leaves lots of small gun shops in a pickle, because they have to mark things up at different rates or use different strategies to sell shit.

The only time there is ever anything resembling a level playing field is if the manuf uses MAP or MSP policies, and these two things often end up limiting peoples freedom in the marketplace.

Not to mention all the ****y ****, hula hoop chicken neck jive turkey type games those mid level shitbirds play with ammunition prices/supply. Don't get me started.

I still stand by my assertion that most of these mid levels are oxygen thieves, though. They don't functionally do much except make the product more expensive and allocate it in bizzare ways. Oooh they have a warehouse that they deliver stuff in from trucks.... yay... bfd. Unlike a lot of other industries these people add ZERO value to the product.

-Mike

 

[icyclefar]

Yeah but it never pans out that way. By the time "joe's gun shop" gets the goods they're usually overpriced, or on a good day, there isn't much room left. This leaves lots of small gun shops in a pickle, because they have to mark things up at different rates or use different strategies to sell shit.

The only time there is ever anything resembling a level playing field is if the manuf uses MAP or MSP policies, and these two things often end up limiting peoples freedom in the marketplace.

Not to mention all the ****y ****, hula hoop chicken neck jive turkey type games those mid level shitbirds play with ammunition prices/supply. Don't get me started.

I still stand by my assertion that most of these mid levels are oxygen thieves, though. They don't functionally do much except make the product more expensive and allocate it in bizzare ways. Oooh they have a warehouse that they deliver stuff in from trucks.... yay... bfd. Unlike a lot of other industries these people add ZERO value to the product.

-Mike

I hear ya.

I owned a manufacturing company for close to 20 years, my primary customer base was 1 and 2 step distribution. We worked very hard to make sure that the product hit the market competitively at all points in the sales channel, and truth be told the way we achieved it was to NOT sell the big box store, I left that for the competition and we took everything else.

Value added is very important, and a 2 stepper can add ALOT of value, in stock local inventory, quick delivery, and competitive pricing, they can also be a great source of information as to what is going on in the field.

The Big Box seller on the other hand, we found added the least amount of value .......... they sold on price, and little else.

I will agree, its a tough game, and requires smart players.

 

[bigblue]

This is the same scenario that led Aubuchon to create a buying consortium for smaller hardware stores so they could all compete with HD & L. It sounds like FFL's need to get their shit together and do the same thing.

 

[jkelly1229]

Your still not getting it. It's not a mass markup, it's a "I'm a low volume dealer" I can't afford to give this away to you at a 5% over cost markup ". The only thing I've ever seen at a " mass markup" are hard to find handguns. And in that case, it's not a mass markup it's current market value.

Your other rambling about AR parts is almost laughable. Parts and accessories are where inventory dollars go to die

Agreed. I've actually talked to a few shops about this other than lpk's which kinda sell. Stocking AR parts is a waste of money because why settle for parts when you can get exactly what you need online. Not to mention the price difference. Think about it logically. AR'S are so customizable that it's nearly impossible to cater to every taste. I personally love key mod rails. You might like quad rails. Other guys prefer just plastic handguards. You might like longer grips I like magpuls others like the triangle. So catering to everyone is hard. Not to mention barrels uppers etc etc etc. Wayyyyyy to many variables to make a decision.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

Agreed. I've actually talked to a few shops about this other than lpk's which kinda sell. Stocking AR parts is a waste of money because why settle for parts when you can get exactly what you need online. Not to mention the price difference. Think about it logically. AR'S are so customizable that it's nearly impossible to cater to every taste. I personally love key mod rails. You might like quad rails. Other guys prefer just plastic handguards. You might like longer grips I like magpuls others like the triangle. So catering to everyone is hard. Not to mention barrels uppers etc etc etc. Wayyyyyy to many variables to make a decision.

Quite literally you could have $10k in AR accessories in stick and still not have anywhere near what someone is exactly looking for. And even if you do, they want to know why you are 10-15% more than XYZ.com

 

[dooshorama]

Is it wise to put actual brick and mortar stores out of business to save 15%? Yes, that is cheapskate. Yes, I'm guilty of it too.

Why pay more? Becuase I'm supporting a business I believe in, that employes people I believe in, that is there when I need it and offers value beyond "savings". This goes well beyond gun dealers.... And yes, it is the definition of cheapskate. The modern day consumer has gutted the service and sales of local business for the promise of a few percentage point off. The long term ramifications are severe.

i don't think it's fair to blame customers for B&M stores going out of business. businesses should be customer driven, not a charity. in a small community, where people are known to each other, it would make sense to pay more to support the community. in a bigger market i think it's healthy to have competition. businesses should change their model to offer what has value to customers or GTFOB.

i believe that service has value, but i think that it is subjective. what you may find value in, someone else would not. there was a thread a while back asking how valuable service is at the LGS. i don't think anyone ever defined what service is. i'm not even sure what a local store could provide that i would find value in.

bottom line is i think the business should question the value of what they offer and not to blame customers. in an extreme example, if i setup shop to sell dog poop at $500/oz, would it make sense to blame myself or people refusing to buy my $#!*?

 

[Len-2A Training]

This is the same scenario that led Aubuchon to create a buying consortium for smaller hardware stores so they could all compete with HD & L. It sounds like FFL's need to get their shit together and do the same thing.

I think that Mike alluded to the fact that they already have this available. I don't know and never asked anyone.

When I was a computer reseller in the 1990s I joined one of these buying groups to get better pricing. In many cases it was a mere 2-3% cheaper and eventually I determined that it wasn't worth the cost (monthly dues). It turned out that my primer distributor's prices were higher than buying some of the same items at Costco or Sam's Club (software in particular) and then they closed their MA warehouse, so everything had to be shipped from PA. Shipping costs and the few days to get it didn't meet my needs or those of customers who need it NOW!

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

i don't think it's fair to blame customers for B&M stores going out of business. businesses should be customer driven, not a charity. in a small community, where people are known to each other, it would make sense to pay more to support the community. in a bigger market i think it's healthy to have competition. businesses should change their model to offer what has value to customers or GTFOB.

i believe that service has value, but i think that it is subjective. what you may find value in, someone else would not. there was a thread a while back asking how valuable service is at the LGS. i don't think anyone ever defined what service is. i'm not even sure what a local store could provide that i would find value in.

bottom line is i think the business should question the value of what they offer and not to blame customers. in an extreme example, if i setup shop to sell dog poop at $500/oz, would it make sense to blame myself or people refusing to buy my $#!*?

Your just typing words, and not saying anything.

We live in a price driven era, were information is everywhere. Consumers are more and more driven by the lowest price, to which small to mid size brick and mortar stores cannot hope to compete. This is not exclusive to the firearms industry and is not localonly.

I never said anything about charity, I've only attempted to explain how and why local businesses charge what they do. You simply cannot change a business model with limited capital and expect to compete... As I've already laid out, markups in the gun industry suck as a whole. Please show me a shop owner pulling up in a Maserati with the profits from his gun store. They exist, but they are few and far between even on a national level.

Ultimately yes, it is your fault, and equally mine. At one point in time there was such a thing as a speciality store, that offered a specialty service. There is no more room left in the overhead to account for people that know what they are talking about.... So we end up with a bunch of box stores like Walmart and Home depot with a bunch of morons working that wouldn't know a hammer from a screwdriver.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

This is part of a larger thank you note pit out by a business owner I have great respect for who knew how to do things "right" in the outpouring of support after he announced the closing of his business after 20+ years. While I don't think he "blames" his customer base you would have to be a fool to realize that buying habbits over the past 20 years have not changed thexsurvivablity rate of a brick and mortar store

Yesterday, a customer said that our closing is symbolic. Unfortunately, it is. Symbolic of our changing world and the way people are choosing to shop and spend. It is becoming increasing difficult for small local businesses to hire, train, and properly pay educated people to serve the community. It served us all very well for 2 decades, but not anymore. Going forward, we must all recognize the impact of our purchasing decisions. Even the small ones.

 

[dooshorama]

Your just typing words, and not saying anything.

nice.

 

[free]

Your just typing words, and not saying anything.

We live in a price driven era, were information is everywhere. Consumers are more and more driven by the lowest price, to which small to mid size brick and mortar stores cannot hope to compete. This is not exclusive to the firearms industry and is not localonly.

I never said anything about charity, I've only attempted to explain how and why local businesses charge what they do. You simply cannot change a business model with limited capital and expect to compete... As I've already laid out, markups in the gun industry suck as a whole. Please show me a shop owner pulling up in a Maserati with the profits from his gun store. They exist, but they are few and far between even on a national level.

Ultimately yes, it is your fault, and equally mine. At one point in time there was such a thing as a speciality store, that offered a specialty service. There is no more room left in the overhead to account for people that know what they are talking about.... So we end up with a bunch of box stores like Walmart and Home depot with a bunch of morons working that wouldn't know a hammer from a screwdriver.

You are not making any sense.

Or, if you wish, your not making any sense.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

nice.

My point is you're just saying the same thing over again, business should just be "better" because. I'm telling you there some unfortunate reasons why it is the way that it is.

- - - Updated - - -

You are not making any sense.

Or, if you wish, your not making any sense.

Something intelligent to add, no? Didn't think so.

 

[free]

Well, at least you got the spelling going good now. Good boy!

 

[EddieCoyle]

Knock it off ladies

 

[Woody1911a1]

what happened to the moving on thing ?

how can we miss you if you won't go away ?

 

[the_shootist]

/thread in 3....2....1....

 

[MAK91]

Gentlemen, let's do the right thing and take it to PMs for the personal stuff. Lots of people are interested in the fact that they closed and want the thread to continue.

Thanks in advance.

 

[PHmaddnes]

Wait, what just happened. I just wanted to wish Alex good luck in his next venture.

 

[dooshorama]

My point is you're just saying the same thing over again, business should just be "better" because. I'm telling you there some unfortunate reasons why it is the way that it is.

fair enough. i think we're saying the same thing. market has changed -- is changing. people favor online shopping. however it seemed that you were saying it is somehow the fault of the people, being cheapskates, forcing small businesses to close. that is where i disagree.

i do find local businesses truly fascinating. since 2013 i know of 4 LGS that closed in NH. i think it's important to discuss why they're gone and what can be done about it. however i don't think it's as simple as people being cheapskates.

 

[drgrant]

fair enough. i think we're saying the same thing. market has changed -- is changing. people favor online shopping. however it seemed that you were saying it is somehow the fault of the people, being cheapskates, forcing small businesses to close. that is where i disagree.

i do find local businesses truly fascinating. since 2013 i know of 4 LGS that closed in NH. i think it's important to discuss why they're gone and what can be done about it. however i don't think it's as simple as people being cheapskates.

I am willing to freely admit a lot of shops did it to themselves, plain and simple. A lot of the people who got into this business had no clue of what they were getting into. On that same token, a bunch of otherwise crappy shops survived for a really long time because they had a lot of good things going for them. This is one of those businesses where you have to have money to make money... and Location... as lame as it sounds, location is still stupidly important. I think this topic deserves a separate thread, which I think I will start shortly....

As far as ZAH goes, I'm just curious where the heck they're gonna relocate. Hopefully its by some major highway in whatever state they choose to move to....

ETA: new thread here....
https://www.northeastshooters.com/v...5-Gun-Industry-Gun-shop-discussion-megathread

 

[josh2600]

Best of luck to you and your future new shop.




I wonder if a shop could survive without selling actual guns. In other words, sell holsters, barrels, grips, slings, sights, scopes, lights, knives, pepper spray, aftermarket triggers and other kits, all the AR and pistol parts, just not the ones with serial numbers. How much of a market is there for "everything but"? Then add in an ammo license maybe. That covers a LOT of territory, and I bet the margin on all the accessory stuff is probably at least as high as the actual firearm itself, with none of the overhead and government bookkeeping. Yes? No?






In Central MA, we now have:
Bob's Webster
Pullman Worcester
Gun Parlor Worcester
Tombstone Brookfield
Bron Sturbridge
Red's? Brookfield?
Wayne's West Boylston
one in Clinton
that is all I can think of

Mike's in whitinsville

first defense in uxbridge

 

[alan226]

For those that have never tried to run/own a business in MA, it would boggle your mind the extra costs of doing business in MA.
I owned a retail type business on the North Shore for 5 years before I said enough. The business was profitable and was growing every single year, but you kind of get discouraged when at the end of the month you sit down and write the bills out and there is little left for the owner. Just a few examples that people don't understand:

Workers comp
Your portion of SS and Medicare (around 8% of payroll if I remember)
Business insurance
Liability insurance
Truck insurance (almost $4000 for a small box truck)
Unemployment insurance
State unemployment insurance fund
State health care fund
State under insured fund
State uninsured fund
Minimum corporation tax. Even if you lose money, you pay a minimum mandatory tax
Book keeping CPA and attorney fees
Health insurance
Rent - ridiculous MA rates
Utilities- ridiculous MA rates
Sow removal
Trash removal- cities and towns won't do trash removal for commercial businesses $500 a month

And a bunch more I can't remember.

Some months I didn't even get paid after taking care of my employees. I worked 6 days a week for almost 5 years.

IT AIN'T WORTH IT !

 

[Both_Barrels_Blazing]

Good luck in the future! You guys, especially Brian, were instrumental in aiding my through the moving and LTC process, which took north of 3 months. I wish you guys the best as you had nothing but patience, valuable insight, and kindness through all interactions.

 

[Tango4]

Does anyone really know why they were shut down?

 

[Chet0729]

Ya, my point is, you cant just run out to any shop and grab a lower receiver, you have to start a damn thread to find one, that's pathetic.

I know Bob's in Webster and B&K in Natick have them pretty regularly. I believe Pullman and the Gun Parlor also stock them. I also think I remember seeing them at the store in Templeton.

 

[Serapis]

Typical NES entertainment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FalArAk]

Does anyone really know why they were shut down?

They didn't get a license to remodel and they were selling drywall that wasn't approved by the state.

 

[Horseman508]

Bought my first Sig there, and a few other guns over the years. Always treated me right and fair. Will be sad to see one of the few decent shops in Southeastern, MA go.

 

[thesyguy]

Wait, what just happened. I just wanted to wish Alex good luck in his next venture.

Derp happened.

 

[olegZHA]

Ok thanks. What state?

Looking at pro and cons of where to go. This is gonna be a big jump no matter what so I want to do it right
Thank you,
Oleg aka Alex

- - - Updated - - -

NH needs more gun stores, like near exits 25 and 26 off of 93

Hemm.... Live Free or Die.....nice....weighing pros and cons of a few states still.
Let you know where I land
Oleg aka Alex