XM177E2 clone build of a MAC-V-SOG CAR-15

[Andy in NH]

John Stryker Meyer (Tilt) wrote an article using a pseudonym (Jim Graves) about MACV SOG in the June 1981 issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine (p. 39-50).

Tour of Duty's third (and last) season began September 1989 and the platoon was transferred to SOG.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

John Stryker Meyer (Tilt) wrote an article using a pseudonym (Jim Graves) about MACV SOG in the June 1981 issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine (p. 39-50).

Tour of Duty's third (and last) season began September 1989 and the platoon was transferred to SOG.

That issue of Soldier of Fortune is awesome.
Im going to read that cover to cover, including the ads.

 

[Andy in NH]

That issue of Soldier of Fortune is awesome.
Im going to read that cover to cover, including the ads.

That was definitely a different time.
I remember riding my bike to the bookstore and buying SOF each month with my newspaper money.
The MACV SOG article really caught my interest and that interest continues until today.
Fascinating.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

That was definitely a different time.
I remember riding my bike to the bookstore and buying SOF each month with my newspaper money.
The MACV SOG article really caught my interest and that interest continues until today.
Fascinating.

I too use to read that magazine whenever I could.
A friend turned me on to this page that publishes old classified ads from the back of SOF. Login • Instagram

Some of my favorites:

 

[Picton]

...I think this means, "want someone to make guns in your basement? 'Cause I'll come make guns in your basement! Just give me a sleeping bag and some ramen and I'm there!"

 

[Andy in NH]

I too use to read that magazine whenever I could.

I started reading SOF probably mid 1980 and then subscribed from 1987 until they went digital in 2016.
They were classics.
After a couple of moves, I purged all my SOF back issues.
At least they are available on the 'net now.

 

[cams]

Great stuff. I was fortunate enough to meet and talk with John Plaster at Col Howard’s funeral, we had a gathering the night before at some hotel bar and the booze was flowing. Man what a group of guys that gathered that night for Col Howard. Bob Howard was a living legend and the other living legends came out of the wood work to honor him. Humbling just to be there with these men that I grew up reading about.

God bless them all.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Great stuff. I was fortunate enough to meet and talk with John Plaster at Col Howard’s funeral, we had a gathering the night before at some hotel bar and the booze was flowing. Man what a group of guys that gathered that night for Col Howard. Bob Howard was a living legend and the other living legends came out of the wood work to honor him. Humbling just to be there with these men that I grew up reading about.

God bless them all.

I envy you Cams, that must have been some night.

SOG’S FIERCEST WARRIOR: COLONEL ROBERT L. HOWARD​

June 28, 2021 Comments Offon SOG’S FIERCEST WARRIOR: COLONEL ROBERT L. HOWARD 44,118 Views

Bob Howard (the most decorated Green Beret) with his Medal of Honor.
By Maj. John L. Plaster, USA (Ret)
RECON COMPANY AT COMMAND AND CONTROL CENTRAL
In 1968, Robert L. Howard was a 30-year-old sergeant first class and the most physically fit man on our compound. Broad-chested, solid as a lumberjack and mentally tough, he cut an imposing presence. I was among the lucky few Army Special Forces soldiers to have served with Bob Howard in our 60-man Recon Company at Command and Control Central, a top secret Green Beret unit that ran covert missions behind enemy lines. As an element of the secretive Studies and Observations Group (SOG), we did our best to recon, raid, attack and disrupt the enemy’s Ho Chi Minh Trail network in Laos and Cambodia.
UP THERE WITH AMERICA’S GREATEST HEROES
Take all of John Wayne’s films—throw in Clint Eastwood’s, too—and these fictions could not measure up to the real Bob Howard. Officially he was awarded eight Purple Hearts, but he actually was wounded 14 times. Six of the wounds, he decided, weren’t severe enough to be worthy of the award. Keep in mind that for each time he was wounded, there probably were ten times that he was nearly wounded, and you get some idea of his combat service. He was right up there with America’s greatest heroes—Davy Crockett, Alvin York, Audie Murphy, the inspiring example we other Green Berets tried to live up to. “What would Bob Howard do?” many of us asked ourselves when surrounded and outnumbered, just a handful of men to fight off hordes of North Vietnamese.
To call him a legend is no exaggeration. Take the time he was in a chow line at an American base and a Vietnamese terrorist on a motorbike tossed a hand grenade at them. While others leaped for cover, Howard snatched an M-16 from a petrified security guard, dropped to one knee and expertly shot the driver, and then chased the passenger a half-mile and killed him, too.
One night his recon team laid beside an enemy highway in Laos as a convoy rolled past. Running alongside an enemy truck in pitch blackness, he spun an armed claymore mine over his head like a lasso, then threw it among enemy soldiers crammed in the back, detonated it, and ran away to fight another day.
Another time, he was riding in a Huey with Larry White and Robert Clough into Laos, when their pilot unknowingly landed beside two heavily camouflaged enemy helicopters. Fire erupted instantly, riddling their Huey and hitting White three times, knocking him to the ground. Firing back, Howard and Clough jumped out and grabbed White, and their Huey somehow limped back to South Vietnam.
CONSIDER THE RESCUE OF JOE WALKER
“Just knowing Bob Howard was ready to come and get you meant a lot to us,” said recon team leader Lloyd O’Daniels. Consider the rescue of Joe Walker. His recon team and an SOG platoon had been overrun near a major Laotian highway and, seriously wounded, Walker was hiding with a Montagnard soldier, unable to move. Howard inserted a good distance away with a dozen men and, because there were so many enemy present, waited for darkness to sneak into the area. Howard felt among bodies for heartbeats, and checked one figure’s lanky legs, then felt for Joe’s signature horn-rimmed glasses. “You sweet Son of a Gun,” Walker whispered, and Howard took him to safety.
What’s all the more remarkable is that not one of these incidents resulted in any award. Howard was just doing what had to be done, he thought.

Read the whole thing

SOG’S FIERCEST WARRIOR: COLONEL ROBERT L. HOWARD - Soldier of Fortune Magazine

Bob Howard (the most decorated Green Beret) with his Medal of Honor. By Maj. John L. Plaster, USA (R

www.sofmag.com

 

[cams]

I envy you Cams, that must have been some night.

SOG’S FIERCEST WARRIOR: COLONEL ROBERT L. HOWARD​

June 28, 2021 Comments Offon SOG’S FIERCEST WARRIOR: COLONEL ROBERT L. HOWARD 44,118 Views

Bob Howard (the most decorated Green Beret) with his Medal of Honor.
By Maj. John L. Plaster, USA (Ret)
RECON COMPANY AT COMMAND AND CONTROL CENTRAL
In 1968, Robert L. Howard was a 30-year-old sergeant first class and the most physically fit man on our compound. Broad-chested, solid as a lumberjack and mentally tough, he cut an imposing presence. I was among the lucky few Army Special Forces soldiers to have served with Bob Howard in our 60-man Recon Company at Command and Control Central, a top secret Green Beret unit that ran covert missions behind enemy lines. As an element of the secretive Studies and Observations Group (SOG), we did our best to recon, raid, attack and disrupt the enemy’s Ho Chi Minh Trail network in Laos and Cambodia.
UP THERE WITH AMERICA’S GREATEST HEROES
Take all of John Wayne’s films—throw in Clint Eastwood’s, too—and these fictions could not measure up to the real Bob Howard. Officially he was awarded eight Purple Hearts, but he actually was wounded 14 times. Six of the wounds, he decided, weren’t severe enough to be worthy of the award. Keep in mind that for each time he was wounded, there probably were ten times that he was nearly wounded, and you get some idea of his combat service. He was right up there with America’s greatest heroes—Davy Crockett, Alvin York, Audie Murphy, the inspiring example we other Green Berets tried to live up to. “What would Bob Howard do?” many of us asked ourselves when surrounded and outnumbered, just a handful of men to fight off hordes of North Vietnamese.
To call him a legend is no exaggeration. Take the time he was in a chow line at an American base and a Vietnamese terrorist on a motorbike tossed a hand grenade at them. While others leaped for cover, Howard snatched an M-16 from a petrified security guard, dropped to one knee and expertly shot the driver, and then chased the passenger a half-mile and killed him, too.
One night his recon team laid beside an enemy highway in Laos as a convoy rolled past. Running alongside an enemy truck in pitch blackness, he spun an armed claymore mine over his head like a lasso, then threw it among enemy soldiers crammed in the back, detonated it, and ran away to fight another day.
Another time, he was riding in a Huey with Larry White and Robert Clough into Laos, when their pilot unknowingly landed beside two heavily camouflaged enemy helicopters. Fire erupted instantly, riddling their Huey and hitting White three times, knocking him to the ground. Firing back, Howard and Clough jumped out and grabbed White, and their Huey somehow limped back to South Vietnam.
CONSIDER THE RESCUE OF JOE WALKER
“Just knowing Bob Howard was ready to come and get you meant a lot to us,” said recon team leader Lloyd O’Daniels. Consider the rescue of Joe Walker. His recon team and an SOG platoon had been overrun near a major Laotian highway and, seriously wounded, Walker was hiding with a Montagnard soldier, unable to move. Howard inserted a good distance away with a dozen men and, because there were so many enemy present, waited for darkness to sneak into the area. Howard felt among bodies for heartbeats, and checked one figure’s lanky legs, then felt for Joe’s signature horn-rimmed glasses. “You sweet Son of a Gun,” Walker whispered, and Howard took him to safety.
What’s all the more remarkable is that not one of these incidents resulted in any award. Howard was just doing what had to be done, he thought.

Read the whole thing

SOG’S FIERCEST WARRIOR: COLONEL ROBERT L. HOWARD - Soldier of Fortune Magazine

Bob Howard (the most decorated Green Beret) with his Medal of Honor. By Maj. John L. Plaster, USA (R

www.sofmag.com

It was very humbling Mike. Col Howard was recommended for the MOH 3 diff x in a 13 month period, for 3 completely diff actions. He was a giant among giants.

Also got to meet and share a couple beers with his son, who at the time was himself a young Sgt in an airborne unit, working on his own career. He reflected on how difficult it was to try and make his own way from under the shadow of his fathers reputation, and understandably so.

It was a beautiful service and an incredible loss for the nation as a whole.

 

[jayhitek]

Those SoF ads are hysterical. Might as well say "Will kill for money. I was in the military".

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I received my 1985 vintage Colt 6420 Upper back from Retro Arms Works today.
I shipped it last Monday, it got to RAW on Thursday afternoon and was on its way back to me by Friday at lunchtime.
John Thomas does great work. I highly recommend him.
He cut and threaded the barrel to exactly 11.5 inches.
He smoothed the casting seem off the front sight.
Shaved off the bayonet lug and then reparkerized the barrel and Front sight tower.
He also opened up the gas port to his recommended size.
I couldn’t resist attaching the moderator , which is also a Retro Arms Works product.
Next up I’m going to try my hand at electro etchining the correct roll mark on my 80% lower.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

The next step in the project is to electro etch the roll marks and other engraving in the 80% lower. I did not want to mess up my Nodak spud A1 80% lower, as they are back ordered to 2022 and are otherwise almost impossible to find. I have a more common A2 80% lower on hand and decided to experiment on that one first. I figure M4a1 markings were more appropriate for this A2 lower.

I used a glue gun to make a dam around the stencil, filled it with a vinegar and salt mixture, and used an old battery charger to apply power. I learned a lot and will etch the XM177E2 markings next.

 

[Andy in NH]

I wonder how this kid (reportedly a 14 year old in Myanmar/Burma) came to be in possession of this rifle?
Maybe from a lost SOG member in SEA?

 

[Picton]

I wonder how this kid (reportedly a 14 year old in Myanmar/Burma) came to be in possession of this rifle?
Maybe from a lost SOG member in SEA?

View attachment 524449

I've been using that pic at work for almost 15 years. I don't think it's all that recent. That child is probably about 40 now, lol.

I think that's a GAU5, though I'm no expert at all. The "clonish" thing I'm building is not going to be as accurate as the OP's, definitely.

 

[Andy in NH]

I've been using that pic at work for almost 15 years. I don't think it's all that recent. That child is probably about 40 now, lol.

I think that's a GAU5, though I'm no expert at all. The "clonish" thing I'm building is not going to be as accurate as the OP's, definitely.

Isn't GAU-5 just the USAF nomenclature for the XM177?

 

[Picton]

Isn't GAU-5 just the USAF nomenclature for the XM177?

Sorta. It’s essentially an XM minus the bayo lug and forward assist, and without the fenced mag release. My understanding is that except for the stock and barrel, the GAU5 was close to the civilian SP1 specs.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Isn't GAU-5 just the USAF nomenclature for the XM177?

Correct, XM177 without an E1 or E2. Also known as a model 610. The partial fence lower, 10 inch barrel and lack of a forward assist are the tells.

http://www.retroblackrifle.com/index.html

If that Air force Carbine could talk, imagine the stories it would tell. That’s a very cool picture.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I finished the electro etching on my Nodak Spud M16A1 type 80% lower.
I’m really happy with the way it came out. The electric etching with the stencil was fun. The hardest parts were applying the stencil straight and putting the glue on with the glue gun to contain the vinegar/salt solution and protect the selector stops.

 

[Whiskeywon]

I finished the electro etching on my Nodak Spud M16A1 type 80% lower.
I’m really happy with the way it came out. The electric etching with the stencil was fun. The hardest parts were applying the stencil straight and putting the glue on with the glue gun to contain the vinegar/salt solution and protect the selector stops.View attachment 524779View attachment 524780View attachment 524781View attachment 524782View attachment 524783View attachment 524784View attachment 524785

Love it. Roughly how deep is your etching going? Not looking for a number, more just in relation to the traditional rollmark.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Definitely not as deep as traditional roll marks. The M4 Carbine on top is original Colt. The metal seems to rise up around the the stamping, so it’s probably twice as deep.
The M4a1 Rollmark, I etched it about 1/2 again as long as the XM177e2 Rollmark, so it’s deeper, but it started to lose detail. The triangles in the middle of the As are almost non existent on the M4A1. im going to attempt to finish these 2 lowers with Norrells Moly Resin, so we will see how ledgable the etching is after.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Another piece of the project arrived today.
This is a very accurate reproduction of the original CAR-15 stock and buffer tube. The tube is not the correct finish, Molly resin will fix that. It even included the correct spanner nut.

 

[Oozy]

Just in case anybody's wondering what's going on inside that extra long flash hider--
Colt Commando "Moderator, Noise and Flash". ATF shortened the name to "Silencer".

XM-177e2-Sound-Moderator hosted at ImgBB

Image XM-177e2-Sound-Moderator hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

XM-177e2 hosted at ImgBB

Image XM-177e2 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

I was in country '68-'69. We were told we could carry anything we could reliably get ammo for EXCEPT an AK. They were known to draw friendly fire.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Just in case anybody's wondering what's going on inside that extra long flash hider--
Colt Commando "Moderator, Noise and Flash". ATF shortened the name to "Silencer".

XM-177e2-Sound-Moderator hosted at ImgBB

Image XM-177e2-Sound-Moderator hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

XM-177e2 hosted at ImgBB

Image XM-177e2 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

I was in country '68-'69. We were told we could carry anything we could reliably get ammo for EXCEPT an AK. They were known to draw friendly fire.

Very cool pics

 

[Whiskeywon]

If I could upload the video here I would, but alas I can’t. So I’ll have to use an external link. As my comments says, it’s a colt 723/725 lower (just a further iteration of the XM really) due to harsh weather and not wanting to worry about cleaning/piling all original parts off the semi lower.

View: https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVs5LXyF5c9/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

[Cap'n Mike]

That’s awesome.
One reason the SOG guys loved those guns was they were so easy to control on full auto.
What’s the roll mark on the 723 lower?
M16A2?

 

[Whiskeywon]

That’s awesome.
One reason the SOG guys loved those guns was they were so easy to control on full auto.
What’s the roll mark on the 723 lower?
M16A2?

M16A2 carbine. All 723/725/727 were commercial guns. Though delta and other groups procured them through commercial routes as well.
Have the matching upper too but the furniture is getting replaced with repro furniture and then the gun is getting painted. 727 below.

 

[AFVet]

Correct, XM177 without an E1 or E2. Also known as a model 610. The partial fence lower, 10 inch barrel and lack of a forward assist are the tells.

http://www.retroblackrifle.com/index.html

If that Air force Carbine could talk, imagine the stories it would tell. That’s a very cool picture.

Hey guy's, I'm sorry I'm late to the conversation but I haven't been on the site too much lately. Wow that brings back memories, I carried that in the AF during the 70'z and 80'z. It was a great little weapon but Man, it was not a fun weapon to use for the yearly qualifications, especially with a gaz mask on. lol When the 30 rd magazines got issued it made the rifle look even scarier. The looks I used to get when I had to respond BX or one of the remf bldgs' were priceless.

 

[Whiskeywon]

Hey guy's, I'm sorry I'm late to the conversation but I haven't been on the site too much lately. Wow that brings back memories, I carried that in the AF during the 70'z and 80'z. It was a great little weapon but Man, it was not a fun weapon to use for the yearly qualifications, especially with a gaz mask on. lol When the 30 rd magazines got issued it made the rifle look even scarier. The looks I used to get when I had to respond BX or one of the remf bldgs' were priceless.

If you used M17 gas masks I can entirely see why that might ruin your experience. The M40s aren’t great by any means either. I have a couple M40s buried away and practice with a full face Mira

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Sorry I haven’t updated this thread in a couple of months.
Im at the point I need to do some coating with Norrells moly resin, but I hate doing that kind of stuff and have been dragging my feet.

I also got sidetracked putting together this early 1990s Gothic Serpent/Black Hawk Down 727 Clone.
Mostly just adding accessories.
It shoots really well
I dragged out some of my old period correct gear for some pics.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I made some progress on my XM177E2 build.
I finished the 80% lowers, and finally did the Norrells Moly Resin.

I started with media blasting.
This was recommended in the Norrells instructions.
I already have an air compressor, so I bought a cheap sandblasting gun from Harborfreight, and got some 120 grit aluminum oxide media from Amazon and had both lowers done in 1/2 an hour. I then cleaned them with dish soap and dried them with compressed air and they were ready for paint.