Would you buy a PSA Glock clone for $300? Introducing the PSA Dagger.

Boris

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The more glock clones that come out, the closer it comes to being modular like the AR15. There are already a ton of custom glock parts out there and this will just add to that diversity. Whether or not you buy this its good for you.
I kind of doubt it. One thing about psitol building vs rifle building is that small mistakes on a pistol have far more drastic consequences, i.e. jams, tight mags etc. Also, 9mm is fairly wimpy round. A rifle round would literally "smooth" imperfections on a home made receiver after a few mag dumps. Pistols, not so much, not in 9mm.

I'm curious if their parts fit on glocks. For some reason I thought that $300 was just the lower, not the whole pistol. I'd like to see a better market on glock parts.
 

drgrant

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The more glock clones that come out, the closer it comes to being modular like the AR15. There are already a ton of custom glock parts out there and this will just add to that diversity. Whether or not you buy this its good for you.

Got a P80 frame done? Slap a dagger slide on it, assuming you can part them out. Maybe theyre good, who knows?

Also for a street price under $300? Count me in. It has all the right attributes to be a winner if it works. Well have to wait and see.

PS - theyll get into MA whether PSA/Fuhrer Healey want them to or not.

While I always want more products on the market, this gun likely won’t mean much. Someone? mentioned the kanik, while it’s a great value pistol, outside of the skinflint crowd, nobody cares much about it, although that’s sort of a travesty given that most flint guns are shit (like the SW smegma) and the Canik gets any easy win above the bottom feeders. The only thing that prevents them from mainstream is country of origin and lack of parts floating around. This PSA thing might not have that so much.
 

allen-1

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I've got a PSA 9mm in my safe that's chambered in 9mm that I use for PCC and giggles occasionally. It's not a super-duper lightweight AR, but it runs fine. I've had to do nothing to it to use it.

I might pick up one of these just because I don't have a G19. I've got 17's , 34's, 43's, a 31, a 48 and a couple of G17 style P80's but I've never liked the way that the G19 fits in my hand. They ought to be in the store by the time I take my truck up to SC for its next service. For 300$ - I'll fondle one and if I like it - for $300 - I'll have them ship it to an FFL here in GA.

And here's a neat twist from the OP's linked article:
Meanwhile, the “advanced” offering that accepts the Trijicon RMR red dot, has high profile iron sights and a threaded barrel comes in at $349.99. Throw into the mix that PSA is providing a lifetime warranty on the gun and it quickly becomes the center of serious discussion.
 

Mesatchornug

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I kind of doubt it. One thing about psitol building vs rifle building is that small mistakes on a pistol have far more drastic consequences, i.e. jams, tight mags etc. Also, 9mm is fairly wimpy round. A rifle round would literally "smooth" imperfections on a home made receiver after a few mag dumps. Pistols, not so much, not in 9mm.

I'm curious if their parts fit on glocks. For some reason I thought that $300 was just the lower, not the whole pistol. I'd like to see a better market on glock parts.
Listened to their video chat about it last night.

300, whole gun. 100, lower only. 350 optics ready. Basically only the frame, rear rail and locking block can't directly exchange one for one. Trigger parts, slide, slide internals, barrel, guide rod all should drop in. Expect most common accessories to fit. They're working on an extended slide and barrel that will drop on, and should be ready a month-ish after product launch. FDE frame should be available sometime in June (they're qualifying the chemistry now). Working on olive and grey to follow.

Their answer to the holster question is "use holsters designed or certified by the manufacturer to fit." So your existing Glock holsters may or may not work, just like the P07 - no big surprise there.

What I am unimpressed by is that they want to launch the product imminently but they're only qualifying tools and new finishes now (which has understandably been delayed do to SARS-CoV-2). Allegedly, their blocker right now is that they're waiting on delivery of sights from their manufacturer.

I think I'm just not into "Just In Time" enough that I would do it that way. But then, I don't have a belt of any special color, so what do I know. I would personally not announce a product like this until it's ready to ship.

That hype writes itself.
 
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Regarding no sales to Massachusetts, if every company refused to submit guns for destructive testing and many more would refuse to sell to mass (due to a real or imagined fear of your attorney general) You would be better off. Then you could call it a total gun ban and a competent court would overturn it. As it sits now some things are available some are not and so we have to listen to Massachusetts residents bitch about all the guns they can’t buy or complain about 15 pound triggers etc.

as for the dagger..... sounds interesting as a training gun since I’ve had more than one new shooter drop a gun and at $300 who cares....

and if Glock wanted their guns sold in Massachusetts they would just freeze sales to Massachusetts police. Things would change very fast. But it looks like Glock wants to play nice with cops
 

Dennis in MA

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Regarding no sales to Massachusetts, if every company refused to submit guns for destructive testing and many more would refuse to sell to mass (due to a real or imagined fear of your attorney general) You would be better off. Then you could call it a total gun ban and a competent court would overturn it. As it sits now some things are available some are not and so we have to listen to Massachusetts residents bitch about all the guns they can’t buy or complain about 15 pound triggers etc.

as for the dagger..... sounds interesting as a training gun since I’ve had more than one new shooter drop a gun and at $300 who cares....

and if Glock wanted their guns sold in Massachusetts they would just freeze sales to Massachusetts police. Things would change very fast. But it looks like Glock wants to play nice with cops
PSA won’t sell pistols, rifles, uppers, barrels, parts,bumper stickers or packs of gum in Mass.


What could be interesting is buying one and getting a P80 frame. Still less than a Glock or completing a P80. Rofl.
 

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Glock Gen 3 came out in 1998
In most countries, patents expire after 20 years.

This means that like the M1911, the Gen3 Glock is no longer protected under patent in most jurisdictions. Which is, of course, why Glock has since released Gens 4 and 5 - why else bother to improve on "perfection"?

Besides, I'm sure Glock has done the math and figures they benefit more from the copycat effect than all of their second movers. As long as everyone is trying to nip at the heels of their 22+ year old products, they can continue to iterate slowly. And they can continue to position themselves as having come first.
Just thought of something, and of course it was one of those "about to go to bed, so my brain won't shut off" thoughts, so pardon the days between posts on this one.

I was fully ready to accept your logical answer about Glock's gen 3 patent expiration. Makes sense. However, I just remembered that Polymer 80 now has G43 pattern frames. That's only a 5 or 6 year old pistol. How'd they get around that one? There must be something in play, as they still won't touch the newer 43x/48x.
 

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Just thought of something, and of course it was one of those "about to go to bed, so my brain won't shut off" thoughts, so pardon the days between posts on this one.

I was fully ready to accept your logical answer about Glock's gen 3 patent expiration. Makes sense. However, I just remembered that Polymer 80 now has G43 pattern frames. That's only a 5 or 6 year old pistol. How'd they get around that one? There must be something in play, as they still won't touch the newer 43x/48x.
(NB: I've never done firearms design, so I haven't had to dig very deep into the patents that Glock uses to protect themselves.)
Technology is different than design. Patent avoidance is an entire segment of product development.

I'd not be surprised if there are things that protect the 43x and 48x that don't protect the 43, or that can't as quickly be solved in an existing way. It's also possible they just haven't finished the tooling for these models yet.

As a business, they have to set priorities. They may simply feel (though I doubt this very much) like there isn't the market there yet to go compete with the 43x/48x models.
 

drgrant

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Regarding no sales to Massachusetts, if every company refused to submit guns for destructive testing and many more would refuse to sell to mass (due to a real or imagined fear of your attorney general) You would be better off. Then you could call it a total gun ban and a competent court would overturn it. As it sits now some things are available some are not and so we have to listen to Massachusetts residents bitch about all the guns they can’t buy or complain about 15 pound triggers etc.

as for the dagger..... sounds interesting as a training gun since I’ve had more than one new shooter drop a gun and at $300 who cares....

and if Glock wanted their guns sold in Massachusetts they would just freeze sales to Massachusetts police. Things would change very fast. But it looks like Glock wants to play nice with cops
If psa actually releases it (this is a big if) those guns will show up in MA in a week or so after release. The whole compliance bs is a farce at this point.
 

Whiskeywon

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I'd buy one with the RMR cut and threaded bbl for $349 in a second if I wanted another G19. There are ways around their unwillingness to ship to MA. It will cost you an extra $40ish to have it shipped to an intermediary FFL in NH.
You are 100% correct, but adding more and more costs/steps just makes it so that you should just buy a glock in this state and move on. haha Obviously still relevant to other firearms too though.
Edit to add: No I would not buy a PSA glock clone. Ever.
 
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JAD

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I am fairly invested in Glocks. I already have a 19, so I really wouldn't have a purpose for the base model. If I was going to get a slide mounted optic, the upgraded model could provide an economical host for that.
 

dcmdon

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You are 100% correct, but adding more and more costs/steps just makes it so that you should just buy a glock in this state and move on. haha Obviously still relevant to other firearms too though.
I agree 100% that at some point its not worth it. You have to do your own math.

Glock is now making a factory optics G19.

They are also making a factory G19 with tall sights and a threaded bbl.

But unfortunately they don't make a G19 with both optic cuts and a threaded bbl.

So either way, you have to spend another $150 on top of the $600 you spent for a Gen 5 glock.

So if with shipping and transfers you are into the PSA gun with optics cut and threaded bbl for $450, when you consider you'll be into a similar Glock for $800+ it seems to make sense.

The value proposition on the basic gun isn't so clear cut.
 

dcmdon

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You are 100% correct, but adding more and more costs/steps just makes it so that you should just buy a glock in this state and move on. haha Obviously still relevant to other firearms too though.
Edit to add: No I would not buy a PSA glock clone. Ever.
For a carry gun, 100% just buy a glock.

For a toy. Its interesting.
 

ReluctantDecoy

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(NB: I've never done firearms design, so I haven't had to dig very deep into the patents that Glock uses to protect themselves.)
Technology is different than design. Patent avoidance is an entire segment of product development.

I'd not be surprised if there are things that protect the 43x and 48x that don't protect the 43, or that can't as quickly be solved in an existing way. It's also possible they just haven't finished the tooling for these models yet.

As a business, they have to set priorities. They may simply feel (though I doubt this very much) like there isn't the market there yet to go compete with the 43x/48x models.
I may be on to something (now that I'm awake and have my coffee). It might be generational coverage, regardless of model size. Polymer 80 notes they are specifically designed to be compatible with Gen 3 parts, and that design in from 1998. That originally didn't make sense with the G43, as I thought it was Gen 4 (2010), but I did see that the Polymer 80 website notes you have to use Gen 3 parts with the PF940SC frame. So if that is true, P80 figured out a way to pattern their take on the G43 with Gen 3 design. The newer G43x/48x are most likely Gen 5 and still protected, so maybe P80 hasn't finished modeling a G43x/48x to Gen 3 yet. Still, I've never seen a G43 Gen 3 safety plunger, so I'm wondering if any Gen3 safety plunger would work or not.
 

Dennis in MA

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Come on Dennis. Think.

Buy the frame have your FFL transfer to you. Buy the rest, have it shipped to a friend who lives out of state.

Put it together efa10 it.

Or I could tell PSA to pound sand like they tell mASS residents. So there's that as well. :)
 

Mesatchornug

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I may be on to something (now that I'm awake and have my coffee). It might be generational coverage, regardless of model size. Polymer 80 notes they are specifically designed to be compatible with Gen 3 parts, and that design in from 1998. That originally didn't make sense with the G43, as I thought it was Gen 4 (2010), but I did see that the Polymer 80 website notes you have to use Gen 3 parts with the PF940SC frame. So if that is true, P80 figured out a way to pattern their take on the G43 with Gen 3 design. The newer G43x/48x are most likely Gen 5 and still protected, so maybe P80 hasn't finished modeling a G43x/48x to Gen 3 yet. Still, I've never seen a G43 Gen 3 safety plunger, so I'm wondering if any Gen3 safety plunger would work or not.
You're probably headed in about the right direction.

You didn't ask for it, but this may help shed some light - a quick and dirty primer on patents (modeled on the US system, but others are similar enough for this conversation):
Generally speaking, there are three kinds of patents: Utility, Method, and Design. This is because, used properly, a patent is on a solution to a problem, not its specific implementation. This gets murky because, just like law, some patents are baffling in their breadth, while others are so narrow as to be almost useless. Utility Patents basically describe mechanisms. Method Patents describe processes. Design Patents are kind of like copyrights - they refer to the styling and appearance of a thing.

Here we'll use Glock as an example, without reference to any particular patents because I can't be bothered to look any up, but am confident I can estimate. When their first pistol launched, they couldn't get a patent on the idea of a "polymer-framed handgun" if for no other reason than there was so-called "prior art" in the form of the H&K VP70.
- They might have received a Utility Patent on "a device for preventing the discharge of a firearm without the intentional press of the trigger" to protect their implementation of the trigger-dingus. During that patent's lifetime, anyone using a device that is too similar to the sample implementations they described in the patent would be seen as infringing - so S&W made a hinged trigger.
- Glock might also have received a Method Patent for "a method for molding plastic parts without gate vestiges" that they then used to produce frames that required less post processing. Having locked up this method, other manufacturers need to find another solution, or have costly secondary operations to remove the parts from their sprue.
- They might then seek a Design Patent for "a molded firearm that looks like a child's drawing of a pistol" with images of the brick we know and love to hate. Because of this patent, an M&P looks distinct from a Glock.

You'll note that when asked they claim to use a "proprietary blend" of polymers. This is a "Trade Secret." Just like the recipe for Coca-Cola, if they patented it, they'd only gain protection for 20 years. Instead, they lock that recipe down by promising to financially ruin anyone dumb enough to sell it to their competitors. If S&W figured it out, there would be no protection for Glock.

Now, there's no patent on the idea of a sub-compact, single-stack pistol. The technologies in the Gen3 Glock design are pretty well proven at this point. A company could simply reverse engineer the critical components and market it under their own name as "compatible with that blocky pistol over there" and be completely safe. They could then do some massaging to fit it to different form factors. It's not impossible that they literally resized the Gen3 parts into the G43 form factor, and made it work. They may be trying to do the same now with the other designs. Depending how much interoperability they want with the original, this could be really challenging if there are newer patents they have to avoid.
 

ReluctantDecoy

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You're probably headed in about the right direction.

You didn't ask for it, but this may help shed some light - a quick and dirty primer on patents (modeled on the US system, but others are similar enough for this conversation):
Generally speaking, there are three kinds of patents: Utility, Method, and Design. This is because, used properly, a patent is on a solution to a problem, not its specific implementation. This gets murky because, just like law, some patents are baffling in their breadth, while others are so narrow as to be almost useless. Utility Patents basically describe mechanisms. Method Patents describe processes. Design Patents are kind of like copyrights - they refer to the styling and appearance of a thing.

Here we'll use Glock as an example, without reference to any particular patents because I can't be bothered to look any up, but am confident I can estimate. When their first pistol launched, they couldn't get a patent on the idea of a "polymer-framed handgun" if for no other reason than there was so-called "prior art" in the form of the H&K VP70.
- They might have received a Utility Patent on "a device for preventing the discharge of a firearm without the intentional press of the trigger" to protect their implementation of the trigger-dingus. During that patent's lifetime, anyone using a device that is too similar to the sample implementations they described in the patent would be seen as infringing - so S&W made a hinged trigger.
- Glock might also have received a Method Patent for "a method for molding plastic parts without gate vestiges" that they then used to produce frames that required less post processing. Having locked up this method, other manufacturers need to find another solution, or have costly secondary operations to remove the parts from their sprue.
- They might then seek a Design Patent for "a molded firearm that looks like a child's drawing of a pistol" with images of the brick we know and love to hate. Because of this patent, an M&P looks distinct from a Glock.

You'll note that when asked they claim to use a "proprietary blend" of polymers. This is a "Trade Secret." Just like the recipe for Coca-Cola, if they patented it, they'd only gain protection for 20 years. Instead, they lock that recipe down by promising to financially ruin anyone dumb enough to sell it to their competitors. If S&W figured it out, there would be no protection for Glock.

Now, there's no patent on the idea of a sub-compact, single-stack pistol. The technologies in the Gen3 Glock design are pretty well proven at this point. A company could simply reverse engineer the critical components and market it under their own name as "compatible with that blocky pistol over there" and be completely safe. They could then do some massaging to fit it to different form factors. It's not impossible that they literally resized the Gen3 parts into the G43 form factor, and made it work. They may be trying to do the same now with the other designs. Depending how much interoperability they want with the original, this could be really challenging if there are newer patents they have to avoid.
Crazy to think, but this could all boil down to the shape of the safety plunger give this information (thanks!).
 

Mesatchornug

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Crazy to think, but this could all boil down to the shape of the safety plunger give this information (thanks!).
It absolutely could. To be more specific, depending on text, etc. it could hinge on the angle of the ramp on the trigger bar. Cam profiles can be the difference between success and failure in some designs, and can be incredibly unforgiving. I'm sure it's more than that here, but just a "for instance".
 

Dennis in MA

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I cannot wait for PSA to bring their mp5 clone. The hate here is going to be epic. I’m going to be LMAO.
That I'd be whiny about. But short of SBR'ing it, it's boobs on a bull for mASS residents.

I've got one of those GSG (gng? Ggg???) MP5 .22's. Honestly, I hate the sights as much as I hated the FAL sights years ago. Just not an instinctive hold position. Almost as bad as the stock 10/22 sights - which have 68 different aiming points in the vertical. LOL
 
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