Would this Pistol Grip replacement be legal in Mass?

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My company makes a pistol grip replacement for AR-15 rifles for the California market.

CA has a strict AWB but they do define precisely what a pistol grip is, which makes it relatively easy to design around it.

Would this grip be legal in Mass? If I read the law correctly you can have only one "evil" feature, two makes it an assault weapon. CA law says you can't have any evil features if you want to use detachable high cap mags.

What do you think? Is there a state police or other regulating body who could make a determination on the legality?

IMG_8497_C.JPG


Just wondering if it would make sense to market the product in Mass.

Thanks,
-Mark
CEO, Exile Machine LLC
www.exilemachine.com
 
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lowracer said:
Would this grip be legal in Mass?

Looks like it'd be pretty hard to argue that was a pistol grip that "protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon", so it looks good to me (but I'm nobody).

lowracer said:
If I read the law correctly you can have only one "evil" feature, two makes it an assault weapon. CA law says you can't have any evil features if you want to use detachable high cap mags.

Yes, you've read the law correctly. With a detachable mag and a semi-auto action, no more than one 'evil' feature and you're ok. If you get rid of the pistol grip, it frees up the rifle to have a different 'evil' feature.

lowracer said:
Is there a state police or other regulating body who could make a determination on the legality?

Good luck. I doubt you'd get any kind of help from the state police, and the AG doesn't seem to be interested in giving any sort of legal opinions on such matters.

lowracer said:
Just wondering if it would make sense to market the product in Mass.

There's certainly nothing illegal about your product, and since we can have a pistol grip on our ARs anyway, some folks might like your product even if it couldn't be determined to not be a pistol grip.
 
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Good luck. I doubt you'd get any kind of help from the state police, and the AG doesn't seem to be interested in giving any sort of legal opinions on such matters.

Thanks for the quick response.

Sounds like the same situation in CA. The Dept. of Justice makes the determinations there and they're in the practice of saying what you can't have rather than what you can. Case law in CA supports this type of configuration but of course that's irrelevant elsewhere...

This sounds very similar to what's going on in the other Eastern states with an AWB. You can have one evil feature. CA gets none so they call this type of rifle "featureless."
 

terraformer

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Is there a state police or other regulating body who could make a determination on the legality?

[laugh2][rofl2][rofl2][rofl]

Yes, they call them juries.

But seriously, welcome to MAs gun laws. There has been some discussion lately about getting AR 15 platform firearms as an FID holder. That would require the mag block. Not sure the pistol grip will have much of an impact on that.

Some may want to trade a pistol grip for an adjustable/collapsible stock though. People would be happy to weigh in I am sure.
 
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imo that thing looks ah....i wouldnt buy it. i have seen a thumb hole stock for the ARs. apparently those dont qualify as a pistol grip..
 
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Some may want to trade a pistol grip for an adjustable/collapsible stock though.

Yeah, I'm thinking a telescoping or folding stock would be far and away the most desired 'evil' feature after the pistol grip, followed by a flash suppressor. I'm not sure most people care about the bayo lugs and/or grenade launchers. But this stock would obviously preclude the adjustable stock, so now you'd be basically selling only to folks who really want a flash suppressor.
 
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Just to clarify, we manufacture the adapter / grip only. Choice of buttstock is up to the rifle builder. This is the part we make and sell; we call it the Hammerhead:
IMG_8566_C.JPG


Here are the four different types of configurations we've identified. I've no doubt someone will come up with more:

1) Stock right side up:
IMG_8497_C.JPG


2) Stock inverted:
IMG_8572_C.JPG


3) Hammerhead as a grip:
IMG_8499_C.JPG


4) Hammerhead with a non-wraparound underhand or cupping grip:
IMG_8508_C.JPG


Here is a link to some more examples of what you could build. In CA the adjustable stock is verboten (0 features there rather than 1 feature) on a featureless rifle, so if you want one you have to rivet it into a fixed configuration.

www.exilemachine.com/gallery.html
 
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Interesting. So you could possibly get a usable adjustable stock on there?

Definitely, in fact that was what I used during the startup/prototype phase of development. Here are some early photos with the cheapest adjustable carbine stock I could find, a Leaper's 4-position unit:

Configuration 1 with an adjustable stock:
IMG_6078.JPG


Configuration 3 with adjustable stock:
IMG_6613.JPG
 

ochmude

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I realize that there isn't much you can do about it given the present laws, but the ergonomics look almost painful. I'm not 100% sure where you'd place your hand exactly, but it looks like a heck of a reach to both the trigger and the safety. It's certainly an interesting concept, though, for those of us behind the iron curtain.
 
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I realize that there isn't much you can do about it given the present laws, but the ergonomics look almost painful. I'm not 100% sure where you'd place your hand exactly, but it looks like a heck of a reach to both the trigger and the safety. It's certainly an interesting concept, though, for those of us behind the iron curtain.

Thanks for the comments. We get the "unergonomic" comment all the time from people who haven't actually held it. [smile] Everyone's hands and preferences are different but everyone (so far) who's held a Hammerhead-equipped rifle said it felt right. We tried to balance ergonomics against having a product that looks like it belongs on an AR-15.

We did a lot of testing at our range in Fort Worth during prototyping and just yesterday morning we tossed a big pile of 30-rounders on the table at the tactical / law enforcement range, and let the public have a free shot at it, just to get more comments. Everyone said it was very comfortable, one guy said it was "all day"comfortable. Everyone commented (with surprise) that there was "no recoil." We are not surprised though, the ACE stock has a nice cushy buttpad and the (now discontinued) aluminum Hammerhead (was) a 14oz block of metal so there's was some mass there to help soak up the recoil. (EDIT TO ADD: the current product is made of Weapons Grade Polymer and weighs only 5oz).

Here are some shots of the range officer having a crack at it, so you can see how it's held. It's just like holding a wooden rifle:

IMG_7124.JPG


IMG_7133.JPG


IMG_7136.JPG
 
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powerman

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My compliments for thinking outside the box.
a couple of comments.
1) I like the idea because you can also have a threaded barrel and not just the flash suppressor allowing one to try different compensators and or not having to weld/pin the compensator on allowing more barrel choices or maintain resale value of a threaded barrel.
2) It lowers the stock down into the shoulder for a more complete connection with the butt of the stock. How many times have you had a little black and blue do to the lower sharp corner of the butt of the stock giving you a stab.
3) i think it would work well with the short entry stock like in picture 1
 
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My compliments for thinking outside the box.
Thanks! I've had a good bit of inspiration from the folks on the calguns.net forums who've invented all sorts of devices to comply with the CA laws. It helps that I lived there for years and felt the boot of the state stamping on my face daily. Clarifies your thinking like nothing else.

1) I like the idea because you can also have a threaded barrel and not just the flash suppressor allowing one to try different compensators and or not having to weld/pin the compensator on allowing more barrel choices or maintain resale value of a threaded barrel.

That is assuming that it would not be considered a pistol grip in MA.

2) It lowers the stock down into the shoulder for a more complete connection with the butt of the stock. How many times have you had a little black and blue do to the lower sharp corner of the butt of the stock giving you a stab.

Definitely. It's a very comfortable position, and the first configuration I experimented with.

This is my current configuration with the ACE AR-UL stock and using a piece of closed-cell foam I picked up at a moutain bike shop for the stock covering:

IMG_8499_C.JPG


Gives a nice cushy cheek weld and since it's closed cell foam it wipes clean easily.

3) i think it would work well with the short entry stock like in picture 1

I've found that the entry stocks are just the right length to attach to the Hammerhead. There are some who like it even shorter and they'll mount for example the ACE ultralight entry stock (AR-UL-E) in the normal (upper) position and use the Hammerhead as a grip, similar to what I've posted above only a bit shorter. You can also cut down a buffer tube with a hacksaw if you're mounting the tube to the Hammerhead because it's just a tube at that point, there's no buffer or spring inside to worry about.
 
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We have some color now

Had a few duracoated in FDE and Olive Drab. Matches the Magpul colors nicely. Got some out on Gunbroker for a song. I don't think we'll do any more of these colors but they do take paint nicely if someone wanted to do a cammo scheme, etc.

IMG_7707.JPG
 

PaulD

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It seems like the next logical step would be to connect the buffer tube to the butt plate on this, or would that be considered a thumb hole stock?

IMG_7136.JPG
 
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Yep connecting those parts would make a evil thumbhole stock.

The ACE UL Entry stock shown is quite strong, I never saw any need to give it additional support. It would be post-apocalyptic badass though to have bare tubes coming back to a common tubular buttplate. Here's a photoshop visualization of that I did awhile back:

IMG_6946_CR2.JPG
 
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Does the upper part vibrate ?

Seriously it does not look too comfortable to shoot or even hold in your hand .

Wonders about the practicality of it ?

But i guess to each his own.
 
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Does the upper part vibrate ?

Seriously it does not look too comfortable to shoot or even hold in your hand .

Wonders about the practicality of it ?

But i guess to each his own.

The upper part does not vibrate, it's a rock river arms pistol buffer tube. There are dozens of pistol buffers on the market, each one has a different look. The product does not even require that you use a pistol buffer. It can be used purely as a pistol grip replacement.

At the risk of repeating myself, we do get the "uncomfortable" comment all the time from people who haven't actually held it. Everyone's hands and preferences are different but everyone (so far) who's fired a Hammerhead-equipped rifle said it felt right. One guy said it was "all day comfortable."

It was designed specifically for the California market. So in that sense it's very practical as it addresses their pistol grip law head-on and allows them to use 30-round magazines in their AR-15s. For shooters in the other AWB states there is not such a clear-cut law that defines the pistol grip.

For those in the free states who've purchased the Hammerhead, they like to be able to hold their AR-15 like a traditional rifle, with a more upright head position. It really is a lot more comfortable than a pistol-grip rifle.

IMG_7465.JPG
 
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OK I now have a dealer membership on the site. Got our own dealer forum here. Drop on over and ask questions. We have sold a bunch of these into the Northeast so if you see one at your local range, check it out.
 

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It looks........EVIL. Makes the EBR evil-looking in a different way.....It's growing on me. I'll think on it a little before I jump, but an adjustable stock rather than pinned would be a nice option to have.

It's like holding a M1 rifle instead of the pistol grip on an EBR.
 
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