Women allowed in the Infantry now.....

Are you kidding me dude? So, by your logic, since I (an 11B) have been attached to an ODA while conducting air assaults in Laghman Province, Afghanistan are saying that I should be wearing an SF tab right now? Just... stop..

...completely different scenario. To get the SF tab, you have to have gone through training and been assigned to a SF unit. I wear a Marine patch (MarDiv1) on my right arm, but I've never been a Marine, simply because I was attached to them while I was deployed. I also have a Naval award in my ribbon cluster, because the Naval forces we attached to gave it to us for keeping their asses out of the fire.

If I had been attached directly to an infantry unit, I could have earned a CIB while I was there, but a female medic assigned to the same unit and stood side by side with us the entire tour would never be able to earn the same award, even after doing the exact same thing.
 
Are you kidding me dude? So, by your logic, since I (an 11B) have been attached to an ODA while conducting air assaults in Laghman Province, Afghanistan are saying that I should be wearing an SF tab right now? Just... stop..
What Scarecrow said.

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No one in the Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps can get the coveted Combat Infantry Badge either, yet somehow they end up serving as joint chiefs as well.
How many Joint Chiefs for the Army or Marines have come from non-combat MOSs? Not too many. I didn't say the CIB is the only thing they are missing - I am pointing out that females who serve in the same capacity as their male counterparts don't get the same ticket punch for their careers.
 
If I had been attached directly to an infantry unit, I could have earned a CIB while I was there, but a female medic assigned to the same unit and stood side by side with us the entire tour would never be able to earn the same award, even after doing the exact same thing.

Now... I may be wrong about this... but I'm pretty sure you have to be an 11 series to be awarded a CIB... everybody else gets a CAB or CMB
 
... and it's not that generals have to have been infantrymen in order to reach the top of the pile; in this day and age, some amount of tactical experience (regardless of branch) is a must. When the chairman of the JCS is a commo or chemical officer, let me know.

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Now... I may be wrong about this... but I'm pretty sure you have to be an 11 series to be awarded a CIB... everybody else gets a CAB or CMB

Yes. Or 18 series.
 
How many Joint Chiefs for the Army or Marines have come from non-combat MOSs? Not too many. I didn't say the CIB is the only thing they are missing - I am pointing out that females who serve in the same capacity as their male counterparts don't get the same ticket punch for their careers.
So you're saying the Marines should start giving females the opportunity to attend the Infantry Officers Course?
 
I understand what you need to go through to become SF. I stand by my statement, the logic is the same. And you're not getting a CIB unless you are an 11B or 18 series. Doesn't matter if you're attached to an infantry unit or an SF unit.
 
So you're saying the Marines should start giving females the opportunity to attend the Infantry Officers Course?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I support making equal standards for males and females across the board in the military and letting women serve in all roles.
 
CT - the point is that women get "attached" to theses units because they aren't allowed to hold the MOS, despite the fact that they are doing the same job. If they were allowed in the infantry they wouldn't be attached - they'd be 11Bs.
 
So you're saying the Marines should start giving females the opportunity to attend the Infantry Officers Course?

They let two of them in last year, and the course is still available to them. Neither made it through, and nobody else has tried... but that doesn't mean they don't have the opportunity, if they can make it.
 
They let two of them in last year, and the course is still available to them. Neither made it through, and nobody else has tried... but that doesn't mean they don't have the opportunity, if they can make it.

I'm aware. I was just guiding That Guy down that particular logical path.
 
CT - the point is that women get "attached" to theses units because they aren't allowed to hold the MOS, despite the fact that they are doing the same job. If they were allowed in the infantry they wouldn't be attached - they'd be 11Bs.
Rant go!
Will you guys stop saying they did the same job! Now this isn't a personal attack, so apologize if it sounds as such. There is a reason these women (and men) have been attached, it's because they are NOT infantry, and need to be babysat and put undue and stupid strain on the units they attach to. Sleep, food, and blood have been spilled ensuring their safety when outside the wire, because they could not be expected to do it for themselves; but, I have yet to meet a POGs (minus medics and FO's, you guys rock) who has even come close to fitting the bill as a real 11B... or C for that matter. They just weren’t trained to.

Note: I feel pretty much the same about all POGs(minus medics and FO's, you guys rock) who attach to the maneuvering parts of infantry, I have never witnessed them performing adequately on patrols and missions.
 
One of our most proficient grunts was an optic tech attached for SABRE (TOW) systems we didn't end up bringing with us... Hence why I support MY idea which is have a company or two of all females who are infantry trained and get fapped out in sections where FETs are needed. That way these few super-women can be applied when needed and not have to be babysat, rather than make FET teams that have some BAMF chicks in them, but some who are sub-par compared to males.

Also, I'm pretty sure that all you other grunts have had to deal with male shit bags as well... Being a man doesn't automatically make you better than a woman. Yes fewer woman can physically hack it by %, but some can and be motivated non-shitbags as well. The bigger problem will always remain harassment/assault/crushes.

Mike
 
[rofl]
female-marines-demotivational-poster-1248999676.jpg
 
Rant go!
Will you guys stop saying they did the same job! Now this isn't a personal attack, so apologize if it sounds as such. There is a reason these women (and men) have been attached, it's because they are NOT infantry, and need to be babysat and put undue and stupid strain on the units they attach to. Sleep, food, and blood have been spilled ensuring their safety when outside the wire, because they could not be expected to do it for themselves


Roger that! just because someone rode along on the mission does not make them infantry.

The females some of you guys might know or may have served with may have been good soldiers within their skill sets, but lets cut the balonie, they arent 11B and arent doing the 11B job.
 
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If I had been attached directly to an infantry unit, I could have earned a CIB while I was there, but a female medic assigned to the same unit and stood side by side with us the entire tour would never be able to earn the same award, even after doing the exact same thing.

Sorry bro, if u are a medic, it doesnt matter if u are the guy who aced Bin Laden, you still would only get a CAB, You have to have the infantry mos to get a CIB. There are no exceptions for medics 'doing the same job" or being "male vs female" or anything else. Thats why they invented the CAB.
 
We don't have CIBs. That said, I think if you are serving as a grunt you should rate it. Our radio operators are for all intents and purposes grunts (as I understand it you just use grunts for that job), as are many other jobs. As I said, we had optics techs who were just as proficient as infantrymen in all aspects of our deployment. You can bring someone up to speed pretty damn quick in the field.

Mike
 
Not for nothing, but Ranger School hasn't had a Desert Phase since the mid-90s. So plainly the writer of that piece had no ability to do any research whatsoever. It's another in a LONG line of media pieces (and from the DoD itself, even) that has no idea how the Army works.

Read Panetta's statement. It rescinds the 1994 policy on not assigning women below brigade. That's all. Everything else is speculation at this point.

ETA: even Odierno's comments in this piece don't say anything about females in maneuver MOSs. These are mostly "jobs women already occupy," now at BN level. Or they can now be artillery radar operators. Either way, we're a long way from letting women into Ranger School...

Read Odierno's statement:
Odierno said the next step is “to look at, do we open up infantry and armor [military occupational specialties] to females?”
 
. The Army, like DOD, is committed to providing maximum opportunity for its members, Odierno said.

I thought the purpose of our military was to win our nations wars, not to provide opportunity and make everyone feel good about themselves.

Scarecrow, your experiences with female soldiers is exactly the opposite of mine. I have met a few good female soldiers, but most were whiny, worthless, sperm banks. I have met plenty of shitbag male soldiers, but not to the extent you seem to have. You must have been in some crappy units. Even for the few decent female soldiers I've met none could hump an M240 on patrol in full battle rattle.
 
Medics attached to an infantry unit get CFMB. Since we're going to focus on the minutiae instead of the actual point.

I understand the point, but you expressed it the wrong way as it sounds like you think everyone should have the same recognition regarding certain awards, which will never be the case. Medics get a CMB no matter to who they are attached, if they give care under fire.
 
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What is,or was,your MOS ?

I was an 11B on active duty and I've been a 31B in the Guard and I branched MP when I was commissioned. I did one humanitarian deployment with the infantry and a combat deployment with the MPs.

As I said before I'm not an expert, but I'm not talking out my ass either.
 
Now... I may be wrong about this... but I'm pretty sure you have to be an 11 series to be awarded a CIB... everybody else gets a CAB or CMB

I have a few guys in my unit who deployed with us who have the orders for their CIB, and they have never held the 11B MOS. I was assigned to a "support" platoon, so I could not be eligible for it even though I was side by side with the guys when they earned theirs. Still kind of pisses me off.
 
Roger that! just because someone rode along on the mission does not make them infantry.

The females some of you guys might know or may have served with may have been good soldiers within their skill sets, but lets cut the balonie, they arent 11B and arent doing the 11B job.

Actually, that is exactly what I am saying. These particular females did BETTER than most of their male infantry counterparts, and they are one of the primary reasons the entire unit was pushing to get them awarded for it. None of us operated in our normal MOS's out there, every person had to become an infantry soldier to operate since that was the mission. I got to carry explosives and blow shit up sometimes, but most of my job consisted of kicking in doors and doing night raids, and the females did it as well as anyone else and were better in many respects... however, we knew which people would hack it and which ones could not, and took steps to leave the shitbags back on base.

None of this matters, it will all be decided so far above our level that we can't even see the a**h***s from here. Our option is to accept it and make it work, or get the hell out, if getting the hell out is preferential to you over serving in a combat MOS with a woman because she is a woman and not for performance reasons, than good riddance to you, you obviously have some kind of complex that needs diagnosing and medication.

Why, if the woman can perform the duties to standard, should women not be allowed? The only reason I keep seeing is: they won't be able to perform, they can't hack it... if they pass all the tests and maintain to standard, what is the reason you don't want them in there? Be honest and figure it out, then get back to me.
 
Rant go!
Will you guys stop saying they did the same job! Now this isn't a personal attack, so apologize if it sounds as such. There is a reason these women (and men) have been attached, it's because they are NOT infantry, and need to be babysat and put undue and stupid strain on the units they attach to. Sleep, food, and blood have been spilled ensuring their safety when outside the wire, because they could not be expected to do it for themselves; but, I have yet to meet a POGs (minus medics and FO's, you guys rock) who has even come close to fitting the bill as a real 11B... or C for that matter. They just weren’t trained to.
This sounds like a very solid argument for having these people who are currently "attached" be trained as 11Bs so you don't need to babysit them. The female engagement teams are absolutely necessary for the work we are doing in that part of the world. Wouldn't it be better for the individual platoons and companies to be taking a fully trained female 11B rather than an attached female MP?

There are ways to make this work to increase unit readiness and combat capability - so long as everything follows the USMC Infantry Officers' Basic course and standards aren't lowered, I cannot see one valid reason this wouldn't increase combat readiness.
 
I'm aware. I was just guiding That Guy down that particular logical path.
I understood that from your original post, but I'm not seeing what that proves except for the fact that there are very few women willing to try and even fewer able to make it through the rigorous training. But the option is there and it soon there will be a woman who will come along and pass it.
 
The issue isn’t that there are no women who could be successful once assigned to the Infantry, Armor, Field Artillery, or Special Forces MOS's. The issue is that there are very few of them. And the way our society works, is that once the pencil pushers begin to review the admittance and graduation rates for women in the combat arms branches, (or schools like Ranger or the Q course), they will most certainly determine that there is a problem because so few women are passing the courses or succeedin in the combat arms MOSs. They won't view it as a factthat few can meet a realistic standard, but rather that the standard must be too high, that the standard if gender biased.

Panetta has already said that they will be reviewing the standards, and it appears that the standards are too high; he will require senior military leaders to justify the rationale.

While it has been mentioned that the current PT test has men and women scored equally for the sit-ups, the 2 mile run and push-up tests tell a completely different story. Let’s compare the requirements for a 17-21 year old male and female.

Push up:
Male: 42 Reps: Minimum required to pass test
Female: 42 Reps: Maximum score

Run:
Male: 15:54 Minimum require to pass the test
Female: 15:54 score a 99%


Look at the current test standards. Please tell me how you believe the Army can develop a single standard for entry into the infantry that doesn’t involve lowering it to the point where it is highly unlikely that the soldier could perform any and all tasks expected of the average grunt. As it is, men who just pass the PT test are probably the under-performers that so many have already referenced above. Now, with a single, much lower standard, do you truly believe that the effectiveness of an Infantry unit is going to be enhanced, simply because a handful of women have been added to the mix?

If you don’t believe that the military is going to open all jobs to women, I believe you are miss-reading the recent statements of the civilian and military leaders. And if you can’t see how that would impact standards, just look at how this nation handled perceived inequities in civil service exams. Simply because certain demographic groups were “under represented” the test/standards were deemed to be prejudicial, and extra points were awarded to individuals not based upon their ability, but rather on certain demographic characteristics.
 
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I have a few guys in my unit who deployed with us who have the orders for their CIB, and they have never held the 11B MOS. I was assigned to a "support" platoon, so I could not be eligible for it even though I was side by side with the guys when they earned theirs. Still kind of pisses me off.

No, they do not. CAB orders if anything. And if you disagree with me, go find them and post up their orders for all to see.

Actually, that is exactly what I am saying. These particular females did BETTER than most of their male infantry counterparts, and they are one of the primary reasons the entire unit was pushing to get them awarded for it. None of us operated in our normal MOS's out there, every person had to become an infantry soldier to operate since that was the mission. I got to carry explosives and blow shit up sometimes, but most of my job consisted of kicking in doors and doing night raids, and the females did it as well as anyone else and were better in many respects... however, we knew which people would hack it and which ones could not, and took steps to leave the shitbags back on base.

I don't even know what to say to this..

None of this matters, it will all be decided so far above our level that we can't even see the a**h***s from here. Our option is to accept it and make it work, or get the hell out, if getting the hell out is preferential to you over serving in a combat MOS with a woman because she is a woman and not for performance reasons, than good riddance to you, you obviously have some kind of complex that needs diagnosing and medication.

Congratulations for resorting to name calling and insults because some don't agree with you.

Why, if the woman can perform the duties to standard, should women not be allowed? The only reason I keep seeing is: they won't be able to perform, they can't hack it... if they pass all the tests and maintain to standard, what is the reason you don't want them in there? Be honest and figure it out, then get back to me.

Go back and read the thread again.
 
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