Cap'n Mike
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Will ATF approve short barreled shotgun for MA resident
- Thread starter CAESAR
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A dealer who has an FFL w/SOT but does not have a MA dealers license is allowed to transfer an SBS, but is limited to 4 per calendar year. When you find such a dealer, be sure to go out back and take some nice photos of the unicorns, and include plenty of sky to get the flying pigs.
Right now my boss just got his FFL in Fall River but doesn’t have his MA dealer license yet due to the virus, if the price was right, perhaps he could be convinced to use his four personal transfers on SBS’s :s -Mat
CrackPot
NES Member
No. It does not work that way. You can’t personal transfer off your ffl books to work around the MA crap. If you transfer to yourself you can’t do a personal transfer for 12 months. You can never personal transfer a NFA item. That always requires a FFL.
Your boss knows he cant use his personal transfers because when he did his ATF “interview” for his FFL they explained the 12 month rule (its a rule, not a law, but they consider it avoiding federal background checks and are dead serious about the limitation). I know it seems like a clever work around, but once you are an FFL you understand why you cant do what you are suggesting. FFL held guns are not personally held guns even if you are a sole prop.
There is exactly one way to “acquire” a SBS in MA and that is to build one from a naked receiver. You cant build one from an existing shotgun because that triggers the sawed off shotgun statue and is a long term orange jumpsuit event. You have to buy a shotgun receiver (unregulated item in MA, but federally a firearm). Then form 1. Then when you get your form 1 approved, build it out into a SBS. Then register it with MA as a handgun (is not a shotgun since barrel is under 18”)
There are posts in this thread about “virgin receiver” or made at the factory as a SBS. These are all people adding non-requirements to the statue. You cant turn a shotgun into a SBS. That is what the law stops. But you can turn a receiver into a SBS.
No such thing as pre-Healy, they will approve anything as long as your paperwork is correct
As far as an SBR goes, u can do anything u want, don’t know about SBS...there is no such thing as pre-Healey! Good luck
CrackPot
NES Member
You are quoting a post from early 2018 when the ATF was paying attention to the Healey crap. They woke up and started approving everything after that. The post was accurate when made.
My understanding is that one can have a FFL without a MA dealer license (like someone having a home based FFL). In such a case MA doesn’t recognize the FFL, I.E. it’s the MA dealer license that triggers the state exemption for the AW and Mag ban.
Ultimately it seems to put one into a situation where your transferring a gun from the Federal book, but MA considers it a private transfer.
I get what your saying sir, but it is contrary to what I’ve been told on here by some respected members of the forum, however it may be possible I miss interpreted what was said.
Rob are you around to comment on this?
Also you can private transfer NFA items if both you and the other party are located in the same state. It’s still done on a form 4 but doesn’t require a dealer.
So someone who use to live out of state and moved into MA owning a original non modified SBS could sell it to another via a private sale.
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@Rob are you around to comment on this?
Also you can private transfer NFA items if both you and the other party are located in the same state. It’s still done on a form 4 but doesn’t require a dealer.
So someone who use to live out of state and moved into MA owning a original non modified SBS could sell it to another via a private sale.
[/QUOTE]
I think I was en error, and I was thinking of "non-MA compliant guns" rather than NFA weapons.
But, for non-ag-compliant guns an FFL without a MA dealers license - the dealer can do a 4473 transfer to himself and not require state paperwork as long as (s)he keeps at or below the 4 per year. I thnk that lask of a MA dealer license also prevents the dealer from meeting the regulatory definition of purveyor.
Also you can private transfer NFA items if both you and the other party are located in the same state. It’s still done on a form 4 but doesn’t require a dealer.
So someone who use to live out of state and moved into MA owning a original non modified SBS could sell it to another via a private sale.
[/QUOTE]
I think I was en error, and I was thinking of "non-MA compliant guns" rather than NFA weapons.
But, for non-ag-compliant guns an FFL without a MA dealers license - the dealer can do a 4473 transfer to himself and not require state paperwork as long as (s)he keeps at or below the 4 per year. I thnk that lask of a MA dealer license also prevents the dealer from meeting the regulatory definition of purveyor.
CrackPot
NES Member
MA does recognize your federal FFL, just not an 03. They recognize the 01, 07, etc. Your 03 becomes partially recognized on 1 jan 2021 when a MA dealer can transfer to an 03 without concern for "the list".
Exemptions from the AWB and magazine capacity restriction come from your MA Dealers license.
Exemption to the ban on silencer possession comes from your 07 FFL/SOT
Federal regulation requires that you apply for all necessary state licenses are part of getting your FFL. While you can make the case (any many do) that you don't need a state dealers license if you do all your business out of state, since you are not exempt from AWB and mags, it is sort of pointless. The moment you start doing business in state, transferring to subjects of MA including yourself, you need the license.
Not aligned with you on this one Rob. The problem is you get wrapped into a nasty "who is on first" loop in your scenario. The gun is in your federal bound book so held by your FFL, not you personally. You can transfer from your sole prop FFL business to yourself w/o a 4473. If an LLC, corp, etc, you need to do the 4473. BUT, you must have a MA dealers license as an FFL to transfer guns to a MA resident. It is not a face to face private party transfer since it is not your gun but your businesses gun that you are transferring. This leads you to needing the MA dealers license.
It seems like a clever wall hack, but it is not. You are transferring guns from a business w/o a MA dealers license to a MA resident. ATF will say you don't have your necessary state licenses and make it a violation of your FFL. MA will say you are conducting business w/o a MA dealers license and just plain violate you.
Key concept, a gun in your federal bound book is not YOUR gun. It is your business's gun. Businesses don't participate in private party face to face transfers. Businesses are not exempt from MGL 140 128 per 140 128A since they don't possess the LTC, the individual who has the LTC not own the gun yet (remember, it belongs to the business).
Who is on first?
I have no doubt people are running with your interpretation, but it seems like a seriously bad idea to me.
I think I was en error, and I was thinking of "non-MA compliant guns" rather than NFA weapons.
But, for non-ag-compliant guns an FFL without a MA dealers license - the dealer can do a 4473 transfer to himself and not require state paperwork as long as (s)he keeps at or below the 4 per year. I thnk that lask of a MA dealer license also prevents the dealer from meeting the regulatory definition of purveyor.
[/QUOTE]
Gotcha, but if that is the case, then it shouldn’t be any different with SBS’s if the FFL has their SOT. SBS’s as we know are legal if unchanged from the factory, and it’s just because it’s on the list which is why it can be transferred by FFL’s who have the MA dealer license.
But it shouldn’t be any different save for the NFA process, if what you said is true about non compliant MA guns through a non MA licensed dealer, (which I believe it is), then a SBS should be possible from my understanding.
I see what your saying now. If this is accurate, then there goes the ball game and nearly 15 years of people saying otherwise on this forum were wrong, granted most are not lawyers, but just when I thought I was starting to understand MA’s gun laws, now there is a new twist, this is like beating a dead horse trying to comprehend this. Thankfully RI GL is much more organized.
![[horse]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/026.gif "Beat a dead horse [horse]")
CrackPot
NES Member
I don't know any FFLs that are lawyers. Very few lawyers in MA understand MA gun law, even some that are out advertising their services as gun lawyers. It is a convoluted hot mess meant to make it nearly impossible to be within the law.I see what your saying now. If this is accurate, then there goes the ball game and nearly 15 years of people saying otherwise on this forum were wrong, granted most are not lawyers, but just when I thought I was starting to understand MA’s gun laws, now there is a new twist, this is like beating a dead horse trying to comprehend this. Thankfully RI GL is much more organized.
When you get bored, ask 10 people if a SBR is subject to the MA AWB and if yes, what provisions; If no, why. Good luck getting the same from any two people including lawyers should you ask 10 lawyers.
As a MA Dealer and FFL 07/SOT I do use my 4 personal transfers each year on off list guns. BUT, the guns don't come out of my FFL bound book but out of my private collection. None entered my private collection from my bound book inside of a year of being transferred. In fact no gun has ever gone from my bound book into my private collection. As a sole proprietor I see no benefit of moving anything into my private collection. If I was an LLC, there would be benefit of moving from my business to me, but I could not move off list guns. I am still subject to MA dealer restrictions even when moving something to myself. No loop holes here...
Given you’re first hand experience, do you happen to know which MA GL provides exemption from the AW ban along with the roster? (I’m aware it exists, however couldn’t reference it if asked.) Finally after long delays with the world seemingly falling apart last year due to COVID, I submitted my FFL app in April and it went live 3 days ago.
I payed my SOT online yesterday.
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CrackPot
NES Member
MGL 140 131M is the law the does not permit possession or sale of AWs and large capacity magazines. MGL 140 122 is the law that licenses a dealer. 140 131M says if you are licensed under 140 122 there is no penalty for possession.
There are no exemptions from the roster. A MA dealer licensed under 140 122 must follow the terms of the license which is 140 123. Being a FFL you can have in your inventory anything and you can carry, shoot, etc anything in your inventory. You don't transfer guns to yourself. There is no need.
