Why is .357 Sig the redheaded stepchild of handgun ammunition?

[kalash]

I'm looking at your post upthread and I see very similar bullet hole diameters for all calibers tested when using the same Underwood bullets, so I don't think it shows any advantage of the .357sig specifically. I also see that these bullets are likely to overpenetrate, which isn't surprising considering they're barrier blind.

ETA: you're also talking about niche ammo that's very difficult to find. Why would I buy a .357sig in hopes that such bullets become more mainstream over time when I can just go and buy quality defensive ammo in other calibers?

 

[Boghog1]

The Liberty Civil Defense. 357sig ammo has a velocity up around 2400fps, I recently picked up a gen 3 31 that I can't wait to put some rounds down the pipe

 

[PappyM3]

I'm looking at your post upthread and I see very similar bullet hole diameters for all calibers tested when using the same Underwood bullets, so I don't think it shows any advantage of the .357sig specifically. I also see that these bullets are likely to overpenetrate...

The permanent cavitation of the 357 Sig is much better than the 9mm loads (except for +P+). And also offers less chance of over-penetration compared to the 10mm and 45 offerings, and less recoil. Everything with guns is working within the trade space. The 357 Sig with these bullets seems to be a well rounded offering.

Yes, 18.3” is 1/3” past FBI specs. But I’m okay with that. It’s not FMJ/Xtreme penetrator territory.

 

[greencobra]

i like playing with reloading the .357 sig. i only have a couple of converted glocks, a g22 and a 27. i bought the 27 ,pre-owned, specifically to make it a .357 when i couldn't find a smith m&p compact. (yeah, smith made a compact and full size m&p in .357 sig) man, flat shooting it is. kicks...yep, but accurate as all hell. i'd have no issues carrying it but as i said, it's just a range play toy. i've taken to shooting the 27 at 50 yards off a rest to entertain myself. i'm not worried about ballistics or penetration since use for it is just enjoying myself. but good reading this stuff you guys posted.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

I think 357sig's unpopularity all boils down to cost. It was pricey to shoot before covid. Will continue to be pricey to shoot after covid (if that even happens), and the manufacturers probably don't like the added cost to machine a pistol barrel for a necked cartridge when all their tooling is already set for 9/10/40/45. That probably also means smaller manufacturers just don't bother, so fewer options means less visibility.

 

[drgrant]

I'm looking at your post upthread and I see very similar bullet hole diameters for all calibers tested when using the same Underwood bullets, so I don't think it shows any advantage of the .357sig specifically. I also see that these bullets are likely to overpenetrate, which isn't surprising considering they're barrier blind.

ETA: you're also talking about niche ammo that's very difficult to find. Why would I buy a .357sig in hopes that such bullets become more mainstream over time when I can just go and buy quality defensive ammo in other calibers?

Lol, yes, but anything worth carrying has a possibility of overpen, otherwise it wouldn't be worth carrying.

I wouldn't do it either but only because 357 Sig was really designed around a 125 grain bullet..... that's the wheelhouse of the cartridge, imo.

 

[jkelly1229]

I think its important to point out that discussions about bullet performance, velocity, and "stopping power" as a euphemism for energy, are largely pointless when discussing why a cartridge is or isn't popular across a broad spectrum of markets.

Let's say its 1995 and a large police force like a state police force is trialing new handguns to replace their revolvers. At the end of the day, what matters more? The benefit of a little more muzzle energy offered by .357 SIG or the the cost savings in both guns and ammo over the course of potentially decades by 9x19? I believe .40 has less expensive factory ammo than .357 but the cartridge wears on guns designed for 9x19 faster, but that's hindsight. I'm willing to bet that to the people calling the shots in large organizations' procurement departments, cost savings is king. Those people don't care about bullet performance. These economies of scale add up and impact the consumer market.

I'm just saying why it was created... then why it died was money and bad timing. If they released it now for example I feel like they would have a better shot and outside the US where military cartridges are a no no.

It was expensive and it came out when 40 was the new hotness

 

[drgrant]

I think 357sig's unpopularity all boils down to cost. It was pricey to shoot before covid. Will continue to be pricey to shoot after covid (if that even happens), and the manufacturers probably don't like the added cost to machine a pistol barrel for a necked cartridge when all their tooling is already set for 9/10/40/45. That probably also means smaller manufacturers just don't bother, so fewer options means less visibility.

IMO it has to do with the fact that the problem it was designed to solve was oversold, and even then, bullet designs have caught up to address that problem in other
calibers, etc.

I still like it. I have a couple Glock 32s.

I don't think the production cost thing is a thing (all most 357 sigs are, is a .40 S&W gun with a different barrel, sometimes recoil spring, and in RARE cases, different sights)

There's a self elimination thing- nobody in LE that can afford 357 sig is going to buy product from "smaller manufacturers". etc.

 

[jkelly1229]

The permanent cavitation of the 357 Sig is much better than the 9mm loads (except for +P+). And also offers less chance of over-penetration compared to the 10mm and 45 offerings, and less recoil. Everything with guns is working within the trade space. The 357 Sig with these bullets seems to be a well rounded offering.

Yes, 18.3” is 1/3” past FBI specs. But I’m okay with that. It’s not FMJ/Xtreme penetrator territory.

It's not much better it's just better.

50 ft lbs is the equivalent of a mild pat on the shoulder

If you've ever been drunk at a trashy bar... you've seen a punch machine

A 9mm is a hit from your gf

357 Sig is a hit from your nerdy friend who has arms the size of your gf

 

[PappyM3]

It's not much better it's just better.

50 ft lbs is the equivalent of a mild pat on the shoulder

If you've ever been drunk at a trashy bar... you've seen a punch machine

A 9mm is a hit from your gf

357 Sig is a hit from your nerdy friend who has arms the size of your gf

I said permanent cavitation. Why are you talking about ft lbs and people punching each other? There are SOOO many other factors to wounding and cavitation than straight up energy.

Now, if you want to talk about actual improvements to permanent cavitation?

For JHP? The sure, 357sig only has a ~12.5% improvement in PWC volume over 9mm. So I would describe that as just better and not much better.

But for the LeHigh bullets? The 357 Sig has a 100% bigger volume of PWC than non-P 9mm in the same bullet. Double the volume qualifies as “much” better in my book. And it still has a 45% improvement over 9mm+P. Again, I’d say that’s much better.

If car A has 240 hp, and car B has 348 hp, I’d say car B’s engine output is much better.

 

[jkelly1229]

I said permanent cavitation. Why are you talking about ft lbs and people punching each other? There are SOOO many other factors to wounding and cavitation than straight up energy.

Now, if you want to talk about actual improvements to permanent cavitation?

For JHP? The sure, 357sig only has a ~12.5% improvement in PWC volume over 9mm. So I would describe that as just better.

But for the LeHigh bullets? The 357 Sig has a 100% bigger volume of PWC than non-P 9mm in the same bullet. Double the volume qualifies as “much” better in my book. And it still has a 45% improvement over 9mm+P. Again, I’d say that’s much better.

If car A has 240 hp, and car B has 348 hp, I’d say car B’s engine output is much better.

Its not significant... there's been multiple studies done not in gel that shot the pwc from a 9 is around the same as a 45.

It's hand guns theres not enough force behind it.

Its like comparing car a which has a 240 hp engine and the sports model which has a 270 hp engine.

Sure its better and yeah people buy the sports model but there's enough value in the regular model where your not going to get everyone to pay a premium for it.

357 sig is ok I've had a few. I prefer 9mm for availability and support tho.

 

[PappyM3]

Its not significant... there's been multiple studies done not in gel that shot the pwc from a 9 is around the same as a 45.

It's hand guns theres not enough force behind it.

Its like comparing car a which has a 240 hp engine and the sports model which has a 270 hp engine.

Sure its better and yeah people buy the sports model but there's enough value in the regular model where your not going to get everyone to pay a premium for it.

357 sig is ok I've had a few. I prefer 9mm for availability and support tho.

Are you still talking about just JHP?

And yes, I read many studies on the efficacy of various calibers with JHP ammo, and have read a lot of DocGKR’s research. Not applicable with the new-ish bullets I’m discussing.

 

[drgrant]

Are you still talking about just JHP?

And yes, I read many studies on the efficacy of various calibers with JHP ammo, and have read a lot of DocGKR’s research. Not applicable with the new-ish bullets I’m discussing.

There's also not a lot of live shoot data on those bullets though, either, just gel testing. Although IIRC a lot of people are hunting with lehigh bullets with great
results, etc. Problem is mostly that ammo is still basically vaporware. Especially right now.

 

[jkelly1229]

Are you still talking about just JHP?

And yes, I read many studies on the efficacy of various calibers with JHP ammo, and have read a lot of DocGKR’s research. Not applicable with the new-ish bullets I’m discussing.

You realize the bullets your talking about are the same diameter right? There will be a marked improvement but 100% maybe if you shoot a 9mm out of a pocket rocket and the 357 out of a 16in barrel...

 

[Soundwave]

Do I really need a whole new upper to convert my Glock 22? Always wanted a .357 sig. If it's just a barrel I'm ok with that.

 

[moojpg2]

Do I really need a whole new upper to convert my Glock 22? Always wanted a .357 sig. If it's just a barrel I'm ok with that.

Just the barrel dude, don't need anything else, even the mags are the same.

 

[PappyM3]

You realize the bullets your talking about are the same diameter right? There will be a marked improvement but 100% maybe if you shoot a 9mm out of a pocket rocket and the 357 out of a 16in barrel...

Their performance improves with velocity on a greater increase curve than with JHP.

The 100% improvement in PWC volume was recorded during independent testing. It’s not something I just made up.

 

[PappyM3]

There's also not a lot of live shoot data on those bullets though, either, just gel testing. Although IIRC a lot of people are hunting with lehigh bullets with great
results, etc. Problem is mostly that ammo is still basically vaporware. Especially right now.

I would love to see more testing. They were pretty available before... but now yeah. We’ll have to wait.

 

[drgrant]

I would love to see more testing. They were pretty available before... but now yeah. We’ll have to wait.

IMHO if those guys are smart they would make a bunch of cheap FMJ projos in the same weight, or publish load data for them. Or get a manufacturer to start selling a
practice round loaded the same way, etc. Tough sell though but might be easier with more shooters existing...

 

[weekendracer]

The Liberty Civil Defense. 357sig ammo has a velocity up around 2400fps, I recently picked up a gen 3 31 that I can't wait to put some rounds down the pipe

Hope you have a backup gun. You are approaching rifle performance with a 'standard' pistol. I'm no engineer, but I doubt that will last long.

 

[Boghog1]

Hope you have a backup gun. You are approaching rifle performance with a 'standard' pistol. I'm no engineer, but I doubt that will last long.

I'll take my chances

 

[Knob Creek]

Load for and carry the .357 Sig. Carrying a P239 right now. Also have a P226 and a P320 in .357 Sig. And as far as loading for it, I take a extra step and run the cases through a .40 S&W carbide die first. That way I don’t have to lube the cases when resizing in the .357 die.

 

[92G]

I am a 357 sig fan and still occasionally carry a G31 since its holster compatible with my G17. the whole debate about 357 sig is pointless because there will never be data to put the questions to rest. Further these are handgun cartridges which all suck compared to any centerfire rifle.

So It’s really quite simple: you like 9mm projectiles and believe that going another 250-300 ft/s makes a significant difference in terminal ballistics. Now join the 357 Sig club.

—
nowadays with ammo crunch it’s also useful to have some versatility in chambering such that if ammo is available I can use it. right now 357 sig and 10mm are filling this niche as both are available. Down here in NC there are geniuses selling their 357sig because they wanted 357 magnum instead. quite funny.

 

[drgrant]

Hope you have a backup gun. You are approaching rifle performance with a 'standard' pistol. I'm no engineer, but I doubt that will last long.

It will last just fine because they're using a light as f*** bullet that's not worth shooting..... and nobody could afford to actually burn out a barrel with it even if it does do that LMAO..... not to mention anybody that's dumb enough to actually use that stuff gets what they deserve... its like RIP, or other gimmick ammo. Reminds me of shit like magsafe.... the names change but the scams are usually following the same themes..... produce a radically different product than the norm and then use all kind of special marketing terms to make it sound like it does something that no other ammo does.... lol

 

[PappyM3]

It will last just fine because they're using a light as f*** bullet that's not worth shooting..... and nobody could afford to actually burn out a barrel with it even if it does do that LMAO..... not to mention anybody that's dumb enough to actually use that stuff gets what they deserve... its like RIP, or other gimmick ammo. Reminds me of shit like magsafe.... the names change but the scams are usually following the same themes..... produce a radically different product than the norm and then use all kind of special marketing terms to make it sound like it does something that no other ammo does.... lol

I was wondering. The bullet shape looked like it would fragment before penetrating very far.

 

[cathouse01]

I know when the 357 Sig came out 357 Mag was “the” caliber for self defense and they named it to piggy back off the idea that the 357 Sig with a 125 gr bullet would supposedly give you the same performance as the 357 Mag (never mind that only niche providers like DoubleTap actually load it that hot). But now a days I think they’d be better off calling it the 9mm Magnum, since 9mm is much more popular now and everyone knows that a magnum is always better.

 

[drgrant]

I know when the 357 Sig came out 357 Mag was “the” caliber for self defense and they named it to piggy back off the idea that the 357 Sig with a 125 gr bullet would supposedly give you the same performance as the 357 Mag (never mind that only niche providers like DoubleTap actually load it that hot). But now a days I think they’d be better off calling it the 9mm Magnum, since 9mm is much more popular now and everyone knows that a magnum is always better.

Double tap is garbage, done, the only one that loads custom ammo like that correctly is Underwood..... or at least I don't remember double tap ever coming back from the fiasco they had years ago where they were sending out lots of shitty ammo....

 

[SDG]

The reasons to carry a 9 over .357 sig are availability, cost, wider gun selection, ability to conceal the chosen gun, 1 round of capacity sometimes and, get ready for this the biggest one is....ability to manage the recoil..... but It’s the same bullet, moving faster sometimes significantly faster. obviously it will have more energy foot pounds and do more damage. In some cases a lot more damage. You don’t need fancy math and jello tests to figure this one out fellas. It’s not a 1oz slug moving at 1600 ft/s but it is one heck of a handgun round. But haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate hate.

 

[Tinkermatic]

The reasons to carry a 9 over .357 sig are availability, cost, wider gun selection, ability to conceal the chosen gun, 1 round of capacity sometimes and, get ready for this the biggest one is....ability to manage the recoil..... but It’s the same bullet, moving faster sometimes significantly faster. obviously it will have more energy foot pounds and do more damage. In some cases a lot more damage. You don’t need fancy math and jello tests to figure this one out fellas. It’s not a 1oz slug moving at 1600 ft/s but it is one heck of a handgun round. But haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate hate.

Shoot what you can afford to train with and can handle well. Shot placement is key and recoil and capacity play in to that more than freaking wound cavity. Shot in the arm or shoulder with any of the above mentioned rounds and you done screwed up A-Aron. Now, the cavity in your heart, or head doesn’t care if it’s 9mm, .357, .45, or even .40, though it may mutter about the .40. Off switch is off switch.
This argument is akin to comparing 6mm to 6.5 to .308 to 30-06. One is flatter shooting, better at 1,000 yds! One punches holes in feces better! One is old, one is new! To reference My Cousin Vinny, the thing being struck with any of the aforementioned rounds, doesn’t give a flying f*** what color pants you’re wearing if it’s brains are splattered all over the brook it was just drinking from. If you can afford it, and shoot it accurately, it doesn’t really matter.

 

[Marty McFly]

I never knew .357 sig was a red headed step child round. We all knew .40 was.
357 sig seemed like a good and slightly exotic round to me but not uncapable or wierd