Why do they have to trace anything?

R

rogersmithiii

NES Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
3,812
Likes
5,432
Feedback: 0 / 0 / 0
One of the things that I learned was important to do in life, is not take anything for granted.

So, with all the whining about untracable ghost guns, my question is why do they have to trace anything?

Criminal commits crime with gun. Prosecute criminal, and jail same if that is warranted. Work on trying to figure out why people commit crimes, and try to reduce crime that way as well.

But who cares where the gun came from?

Maybe if Democrats were serious about crime, as they are serious about disarming law abiding folks, we wouldn't be in such a mess.
 
So they can arrest you for not reporting the gun being stolen in the first place. ;)

I think it harkens back to TV. "We ran a trace on that bullet - it was sold to a guy in a bodega upstate who matches the description of the perp." ROFL!!!

I guess really if you have a gun runner, you could catch the gun runner. . . . theoretically.
 
rogersmithiii said:
One of the things that I learned was important to do in life, is not take anything for granted.

So, with all the whining about untracable ghost guns, my question is why do they have to trace anything?

Criminal commits crime with gun. Prosecute criminal, and jail same if that is warranted. Work on trying to figure out why people commit crimes, and try to reduce crime that way as well.

But who cares where the gun came from?

Maybe if Democrats were serious about crime, as they are serious about disarming law abiding folks, we wouldn't be in such a mess.
Click to expand...

Because if they couldn't then it wouldn't potentially give a DA an extra score to rub one out to. In rare cases where they just have a gun, a crime but no perp it can possibly get them a perp.
 
rogersmithiii said:
So, with all the whining about untraceable ghost guns, my question is why do they have to trace anything?

Criminal commits crime with gun. Prosecute criminal, and jail same if that is warranted. Work on trying to figure out why people commit crimes, and try to reduce crime that way as well.
Click to expand...

In order to prosecute the criminal, you have to find that perp. Rightly or wrongly, "tracing the gun" is seen as a way to do that. About 75% of the time, the ATF can find the last known owner of to provide a starting point, although the process to do so is intentionally archaic, time-consuming, and expensive. While that owner can refuse to cooperate, or claim that the gun was stolen or lost in a boating accident, to say that the police can make it uncomfortable for them is an understatement.
 
I'm a realist, not good at toeing party lines or narratives...

The good is mostly, for instance, noting after investigation that some dipshit bought 300 handguns (who seems to have very few now) in 3 years and 18 of them showed up in crimes within a short time period and particular area. People actually do this, really stupid people, buy guns legally and intentionally sell them for profit in a dark grey or black market venture..

Unserialized stuff, well if you are a larger illicit organization who needs guns - it sure makes a lot of sense to get a pallet of P80s and pay someone who is good at it to bang them out. Kids, prohibited persons, those with crime in mind, do the same on an individual level to an isolated degree as well.

I don't think tracing crime guns does much except uncovering an occasional mass straw purchase venture or a rare situation where it leads them directly to the perp.

And I don't think unserialized guns are responsible for a huge increase in armed criminals. We got like 400 million guns in this country, possibly lots more even, criminals always have had them. It just makes it easier/cleaner.

And I don't think the ability to stop a few criminals who are already breaking laws is a reason to hamper law abiding folks exercising their 2A rights. It's impertinent - law enforcement needs to bust the bad guys, lock them up. Serializing guns doesn't, never has, stopped bad guys.

Lastly, some portion of the crime guns they say are ghosties, they are just lazy police failing to record it, guns with serial numbers removed, guns where private sales prevent tracing (even if it's recorded on a 4473 somewhere - no way for LE to find it). They started putting effort into tracking "untraceable" guns lately, which bumps the stats - probably is an increase just it's not all ghost guns driving it.
 
rogersmithiii said:
But who cares where the gun came from?
Click to expand...
Prosecutors. There may be a chance to get someone who does not know enough to STFU when questioned on a safe storage violation.

Or, perhaps, a gun is found at a crime scene and tracing it to the last legal owner might help find the crook - or at least give the system someone to sweat and prosecute or force to accept a plea deal.

In some freedom acknowledging states, the trace could be used to return a lost gun to the owner.

A good friend that an Ed Brown 1911 45 that was returned to him after a theft thanks to connections, a called in favor, and a trace that allowed the gun to find its way home.
 
Last edited:
murphcc1 said:
ALL about CONTROL!!!
Click to expand...
The US will not even leave a base of research scientists in Antartica McMurdo base uncontrolled - there is a US marshall stationed there so they are always under LE supervision and control.
 
Last edited:
M1911 said:
That used to be the case. But now most anyone with a credit card and access to YouTube can put together a P80 clone.
Click to expand...

A good one, I'm saying. And the average [insert 1% MC] member, [insert drug running family/cartel/gang] member, etc doesn't want to be sitting around watching you tube videos, troubleshooting and fine tuning their p80 glock, or ordering parts online to build it with their CC (that they may not have). They want to get handed a working gun.

We like to play with the stuff, being enthusiasts and all. There's a grey market where people just buy them as finished products.
 
Parker Schreiber said:
In order to prosecute the criminal, you have to find that perp. Rightly or wrongly, "tracing the gun" is seen as a way to do that. About 75% of the time, the ATF can find the last known owner of to provide a starting point, although the process to do so is intentionally archaic, time-consuming, and expensive. While that owner can refuse to cooperate, or claim that the gun was stolen or lost in a boating accident, to say that the police can make it uncomfortable for them is an understatement.
Click to expand...
There was a widely reported case how in Canada they built a gun registry system, Canadian Firearms Registry - Wikipedia, The net annual operating cost of the program was originally estimated to be $2 million.[1] Then it turned into "At the time of the 2002 audit, however, the revised estimates from the Department of Justice were that the cost of the whole gun control program would be more than $1 billion by 2004-05 and that the income from licence fees in the same period would be $140 million.[9]"

They apparently never determined if it had any effect on public safety.
 
teamRR said:
A good one, I'm saying. And the average [insert 1% MC] member, [insert drug running family/cartel/gang] member, etc doesn't want to be sitting around watching you tube videos, troubleshooting and fine tuning their p80 glock, or ordering parts online to build it with their CC (that they may not have). They want to get handed a working gun.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with that. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't take some seriously organized gang that has a dedicated armorer that puts these together. Pretty much any muppet in the hood can put one together and sell it to kids on the street corner.
 
M1911 said:
I don't disagree with that. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't take some seriously organized gang that has a dedicated armorer that puts these together. Pretty much any muppet in the hood can put one together and sell it to kids on the street corner.
Click to expand...

True and probably some enterprising high school kid included in there :)
 
rogersmithiii said:
why do they have to trace anything
Click to expand...
because it was never about fighting any crimes nor reducing crime levels. if it would be about crimes - law would be hanging criminals who commit such crimes. they do quite opposite - they refuse to prosecute and release criminals out.
so, it means - crimes are good, crimes do scare population shitless. police also scares people, and feds do. one big happy scarecrow machine that feeds itself and sustains itself.
 
Could we please stop repeating the foolishness that privately made firearms "can't be traced"?

Tracking their provenance does require a bit more effort than just typing a query into a database....almost exactly the sort of effort which falls under the heading of 'police work', or 'investigation'. Consider - local, state, federal, tribal and other law enforcement routinely suss out smuggling networks and figure out where drugs and other contraband come from. Illegal cocaine doesn't come with serial numbers through registered businesses.*



*Incidentally, legal cocaine [sold in the US] does have some pretty substantial marking and tracking associated with it. Ask your dentist.

Edit to add:
Adding a comma between 'federal' and 'tribal'. Oops.

Adding this link to various National Stock Numbers for cocaine....just in case Doc is having fun

ISO Group - In Stock. Buy cocaine Online Now.

ISO Group search results for cocaine
www.iso-group.com
 
Last edited:
rogersmithiii said:
One of the things that I learned was important to do in life, is not take anything for granted.

So, with all the whining about untracable ghost guns, my question is why do they have to trace anything?

Criminal commits crime with gun. Prosecute criminal, and jail same if that is warranted. Work on trying to figure out why people commit crimes, and try to reduce crime that way as well.

But who cares where the gun came from?

Maybe if Democrats were serious about crime, as they are serious about disarming law abiding folks, we wouldn't be in such a mess.
Click to expand...
You're critically thinking. The government hates when you do that.

It all went off the rails in 1968. Prior to that, a gun was simply a tool like any other tool. No ATF 4473s. No licensed dealers. No requirement for serializing guns at all. No prohibition on gun possession by felons! Once a convicted felon paid his debt to society, served his sentence and was released he was free to defend himself using all means available to every free person - including the use of a firearm. What a concept!!!

You're not missing anything. There's no hidden logic to what is going on here. The people have been intellectually lazy for many decades. They've allowed their government to shirk its basic responsibility to administer criminal justice. Instead, they've been allowed to turn the tables on us - the people - and to convince us that WE are the problem.

NEVER, EVER forget that the whole purpose of 2A from the very beginning was as a hedge against THEM, the GOVERNMENT. As such, there is absolutely ZERO constitutional basis for one, single gun law. Allowing even one single gun law legitimizes the premise that the very government 2A exists to guard against, somehow should have a say in its regulation.

If you really stop and think about it, the whole concept of the government controlling our constitutionally-enumerated means to resist them in ANY way whatsoever is truly a*s-backwards.
 
Parker Schreiber said:
In order to prosecute the criminal, you have to find that perp. Rightly or wrongly, "tracing the gun" is seen as a way to do that. About 75% of the time, the ATF can find the last known owner of to provide a starting point, although the process to do so is intentionally archaic, time-consuming, and expensive. While that owner can refuse to cooperate, or claim that the gun was stolen or lost in a boating accident, to say that the police can make it uncomfortable for them is an understatement.
Click to expand...

It's a lot faster than you think it is most of the time, unless a gun was sold to a whole bunch of people or someone died in the chain of possession.
 
drgrant said:
It's a lot faster than you think it is most of the time, unless a gun was sold to a whole bunch of people or someone died in the chain of possession.
Click to expand...

According to the National Tracing Center, 'Traces classified as “Routine” are completed within seven to ten days on average.'

National Tracing Center | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) National Tracing Center (NTC) is the United States’ only crime gun tracing facility. NTC’s mission is to conduct firearms tracing to provide investigative leads for federal, state, local and foreign law enforcement agencies. Firearm...
www.atf.gov www.atf.gov
 
Bender said:
Could we please stop repeating the foolishness that privately made firearms "can't be traced"?
Click to expand...

There's nothing foolish about it, tracing the origin of some slipshot p80 build is a lot more difficult than a cop filling out a trace form and sending it to NTC or whoever.

Can they be traced? Sure, but the level if resources required jumps and it becomes more difficult. And cops/detectives aren't going to make their lives more difficult unless there's a big perceived payoff. They're not going to go FR to try to map the origin of half of a P80 that got found in a trash can, etc.
 
Parker Schreiber said:
According to the National Tracing Center, 'Traces classified as “Routine” are completed within seven to ten days on average.'

National Tracing Center | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) National Tracing Center (NTC) is the United States’ only crime gun tracing facility. NTC’s mission is to conduct firearms tracing to provide investigative leads for federal, state, local and foreign law enforcement agencies. Firearm...
www.atf.gov www.atf.gov
Click to expand...
It's way faster than that in a lot of cases. Especially on an "only 1 owner from new" gun.

Have you ever seen a gun that took 7-10 days to trace during a big incident? Nope. That's because the system isn't that slow normally.

The main reason that # is listed is likely due to old or buried records, then sure, it might take that long.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
The US will not even leave a base of research scientists in Antartica Mcmurdo base uncontrolled - there is a US marshall stationed there so they are always under LE supervision and control.
Click to expand...
www.usmarshals.gov

Historical Reading Room — U.S. Marshals Make Legal Presence In Antarctica | U.S. Marshals Service

The Marshals Service became the official law enforcement entity for the South Pole through an agreement with the National Science Foundation (NSF) and the U.S.
www.usmarshals.gov www.usmarshals.gov

Yes, and no. They are deputized scientists.
 
drgrant said:
It's way faster than that in a lot of cases. Especially on an "only 1 owner from new" gun.

Have you ever seen a gun that took 7-10 days to trace during a big incident? Nope. That's because the system isn't that slow normally.

The main reason that # is listed is likely due to old or buried records, then sure, it might take that long.
Click to expand...
Having to go back to paper documents is a PITA if they haven't been scanned yet. I had a guy deported in the 80's one time. Literally had to have someone go through the files and find it for me.

They are working on getting stuff scanned, but that's a LOT of paperwork.
 
drgrant said:
It's way faster than that in a lot of cases. Especially on an "only 1 owner from new" gun.

Have you ever seen a gun that took 7-10 days to trace during a big incident? Nope. That's because the system isn't that slow normally.
Click to expand...
Big incidents get to skip "routine" queue, but yes, the ATF system is that slow normally. 18 USC §926 states, "No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that . . . any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established." While the ATF has slowly been digitizing its paper and microfiche images, it still can't legally create a searchable database. What it does do is provide access via eTrace to the data submitted by state and international actors.

So when you get a quick answer after a big incident, odds are it's from a state source.
 
Parker Schreiber said:
Big incidents get to skip "routine" queue, but yes, the ATF system is that slow normally. 18 USC §926 states, "No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that . . . any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established." While the ATF has slowly been digitizing its paper and microfiche images, it still can't legally create a searchable database. What it does do is provide access via eTrace to the data submitted by state and international actors.

So when you get a quick answer after a big incident, odds are it's from a state source.
Click to expand...
Its hair splitting, but the actial wording is:

(a)The Attorney General may prescribe only such rules and regulations as are necessary to carry out the provisions of this chapter, including—
(1) regulations providing that a person licensed under this chapter, when dealing with another person so licensed, shall provide such other licensed person a certified copy of this license;
(2) regulations providing for the issuance, at a reasonable cost, to a person licensed under this chapter, of certified copies of his license for use as provided under regulations issued under paragraph (1) of this subsection; and
(3) regulations providing for effective receipt and secure storage of firearms relinquished by or seized from persons described in subsection (d)(8) or (g)(8) of section 922.
No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary’s [1] authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.
Click to expand...
The Attorney General is refering to the US AG, not state AGs and the limitation is only binding on that person or, presumably, his designees.

People read part (3) without looking at the containing section and jump to the unfortunately inaccurate conclusion that the feds prohibits states from running their own registration scheme.
 
drgrant said:
It's way faster than that in a lot of cases. Especially on an "only 1 owner from new" gun.

Have you ever seen a gun that took 7-10 days to trace during a big incident? Nope. That's because the system isn't that slow normally.

The main reason that # is listed is likely due to old or buried records, then sure, it might take that long.
Click to expand...
The tracing process for the "only 1 owner" gun is the same whether it's a big incident case or not.

LE requests a trace, and provides make/model/SN to ATF. ATF has easy access to records from the manufacturer to importer to distributor to dealer, then sends an agent to the dealer to look at their A&D log to see when it was transferred, to whom. They look at the 4473 for more details.

The only difference between "big incident" and routine, is how quickly they dispatch someone to the dealer to look at the records.
 
Why to they want to trace? Because they watch too much TV. Plain and simple. People not familiar with guns think someone can walk over to a screen, punch in a few numbers and tell exactly who owns a guns and start the investigation there. There's suspect number one. They also believe a bullet can be matched to a gun (when we known that's often not true).

One question I have never heard answered is how many crimes have been solved by tracing a gun? Police don't answer...I suspect cause the number is close to zero. Libs believe gun registration works....and equate it to registering a car. I find it specious given the different nature of a firearm (size and use). Someone who is inclined to register their firearms is less prone to commit a crime, not because they're registered, but because they're not criminals. It the same mentality that proggies have about someone is more likely to commit a crime if they're armed. It's the gun's fault...always. I've had several thoughtful discussions with total lefties at work and mentality is astounding, and unshakeable.
 
Back
Top Bottom