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White Fort Worth police officer shoots and kills 28-year-old black woman in her home
- Thread starter KVX
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AHM
NES Member
(I just thought of a legal trivia question:
does the Castle Doctrine apply when
you're in your downstairs neighbor's luxury apartment,
but you "identify" it as your own apartment?)
He may want to "simply get probation",
but recall the LA riots started when
the cops who beat Rodney King were acquitted at trial.
Maybe that kind of a plea deal ain't gonna be on the table.
If I recall correctly, manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide carry a 2-20 year sentence with the possibility of probation. A deal may not even be necessary for probation.
AHM
NES Member
ABC radio network news just said that "... the community is reeling in Fort Worth ...".
Is that a formula for probation after a conviction during trial?
StevieP
NES Member
He's gonna get his ass gaped if they put him in with the general population.
ISOTOX
NES Member
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It just might from all the anal friction he is going to feel in prison.... Just saying!
It's still homicide either way. It's just a classification issue according to legal definitions under Texas Law. The principal differentiator is intent to kill or severely injure. So the question is, did we get here because of negligence/incompetence, or did we get here because at some point he decided he wanted to shoot somebody that day and made it happen?
I watched the bodycam video, read some comments. First, how can somebody respond to the command when taken by surprise like that in less than a second before lethal force must be used? My guess is the cop already had his finger on the trigger, looks like he lost his balance, and pulled the trigger.
I try to think of what ifs when you're responding to this call tho. One thing that pops in my head is that home invasion in Connecticut where the two methheads broke into a doctor's house, beat him to a pulp and tied him up, raped the wife and daughters, tied them to beds, and set the place on fire.
The police had set up a perimeter, but they never approached the house.
It's not impossible that a welfare check turns into an in progress home invasion, but that doesn't mean you check all around the outside of the dwelling before approaching the door. It looked like there were two officers responding. It makes more sense to me to send one to the front door to announce, the other to go around back quietly to make sure no one may be trying to sneak out.
This to me smells like botched technique. A door open at 2:30 in the morning doesn't mean crap, it just means a door is open. Maybe someone let the cat out to take a piss?
It's like, if you're someone who wants to Swat somebody to possibly get them shot, why bother with some elaborate violent crime and telegraph you're attempting to Swat somebody when you can just send cops over on a "welfare check" and get the same result?
I try to think of what ifs when you're responding to this call tho. One thing that pops in my head is that home invasion in Connecticut where the two methheads broke into a doctor's house, beat him to a pulp and tied him up, raped the wife and daughters, tied them to beds, and set the place on fire.
The police had set up a perimeter, but they never approached the house.
It's not impossible that a welfare check turns into an in progress home invasion, but that doesn't mean you check all around the outside of the dwelling before approaching the door. It looked like there were two officers responding. It makes more sense to me to send one to the front door to announce, the other to go around back quietly to make sure no one may be trying to sneak out.
This to me smells like botched technique. A door open at 2:30 in the morning doesn't mean crap, it just means a door is open. Maybe someone let the cat out to take a piss?
It's like, if you're someone who wants to Swat somebody to possibly get them shot, why bother with some elaborate violent crime and telegraph you're attempting to Swat somebody when you can just send cops over on a "welfare check" and get the same result?
When you make a mistake near a cop, you get killed. When a cop makes a mistake near you, you get killed. And you need not even be aware there is a cop nearby. And there is probably literally no place you can be safe from encountering a cop, despite your best efforts. Inside your own home? Nope! Just like there is no place immune from other crimes, there's no place immune from police misconduct/incompetence either.
That does make sense. What doesn't make sense is playing the voyeur while you're around back, and without any valid reason to assume that a crime is in progress, drawing on the first human figure you see through a window. It would seem that these cops jumped to the conclusion that they were dealing with a home invasion/burglary in progress, whereas they should always have kept in mind that it was possibly nothing more than a door left ajar or a medical emergency.
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And my wife thinks I'm strange for always wanting the shades closed as it gets darker. It is far too easy for anyone out there to see me without me seeing them.
I didn't really have cops in mind as part of this routine I do, but maybe now I should.
The video included images of a gun inside a bedroom. Kraus said he did not know whether Jefferson was holding the weapon. But he said the mere fact she had a gun shouldn't be considered unusual in Texas.
"We're homeowners in Texas," the police chief said. "Most of us, if we thought we had somebody outside our house that shouldn't be and we had access to a firearm, we would be acting very similarly to how she was acting."
Changes what in the narrative though? She’s allowed to point a gun at intruders snooping around her yard from within her house in the middle of the night. He’s not allowed to snoop around her yard in the middle of the night and shoot her through the window. It shouldn’t make any difference whatsoever.
Whether she pointed a gun at him or was asleep in bed, him shooting her through the window having made no attempt at any point to identify himself or give her any reason to believe he someone who should be there, isn’t justified.
I also don’t think the allegation she pointed a gun at him, helps him. She had valid reason to point a gun at him, and especially considering the outcome, I’d argue extremely valid reason to actually shoot him, and she didn’t.
Maybe she didn’t because she recognized he was a cop and shouldn’t have been a threat? Maybe she didn’t because she wanted to recognize a threat before shooting?
These are things people who take human life seriously and don’t take the taking of human life lightly, do. Most people don’t wish to unduly, unjustly, and unnecessarily kill someone if they don’t have to.
That was not the case for the cop, who took no steps whatsoever at determining whether he faced an actual threat and instead took careful steps to ensure the homeowner would have no idea what’s going on.
Maybe she didn’t because she recognized he was a cop and shouldn’t have been a threat? Maybe she didn’t because she wanted to recognize a threat before shooting?
These are things people who take human life seriously and don’t take the taking of human life lightly, do. Most people don’t wish to unduly, unjustly, and unnecessarily kill someone if they don’t have to.
That was not the case for the cop, who took no steps whatsoever at determining whether he faced an actual threat and instead took careful steps to ensure the homeowner would have no idea what’s going on.
Shire Guy
NES Member
No. Changes nothing.
No.
It MIGHT change things if the police officer said he saw the gun pointed at him. I’m sure now he’ll suddenly remember he saw it.
But fundamentally? No. Changes nothing. If he announces himself, she presumably doesn’t shoot. As it is? He’s just another armed prowler.
People forget, this DIDN'T happen in Mass!!!
In Texas, people are expected to own gunsand defend themselves!
Well, it all but rules out the ND theory. The chief acknowledges that the cop was still not justified. Failure to announce under the circumstances is damning. He's not going to get away from that.
He had not announced himself as a Police Officer, so any REASONABLE person would assume it was a home invasion / prowler / insert bad guy here.
IF the officer saw her holding a weapon, all he had to do is shut his light off and take cover, radio for help from the other cop, which is what he should have done regardless if there was a bad guy or a good guy in the house who was suspected of being armed.
There is no way to make this a "good shoot" . the Department is hiding behind policy and assorted BS hanging the cop out to dry, but this is a training and operational failure and they need to own up to it.
IF the officer saw her holding a weapon, all he had to do is shut his light off and take cover, radio for help from the other cop, which is what he should have done regardless if there was a bad guy or a good guy in the house who was suspected of being armed.
There is no way to make this a "good shoot" . the Department is hiding behind policy and assorted BS hanging the cop out to dry, but this is a training and operational failure and they need to own up to it.
AHM
NES Member
I.e., "she brandished stupidly".
Han Solo did exactly the opposite -
some real slick sleight-of-hand here:
Here's two real brain teasers I don't recall seeing discussed yet in as few words:
1. If you heard noises from outside your house after midnight, grabbed your (hand)gun, and then a disembodied voice from outside your window yelled, "Put your hands up! Show me your hands!", would you immediately disarm to appease the trespasser?
2. When the neighbor requested a "welfare check", and Fort Worth PD rolled two cops to see how the lady was doing, in the meantime while the dispatcher called the house to ask her if she was OK or needed help what did she tell them on the phone?
Oh wait - you mean when Fort Worth PD gets a request for a "welfare check" they don't call the subject on the telephone, but instead wait to hear what happens when cops start prowling around the property? What do they do for a 911-hangup - vector in a police helicopter?
It’s not a coincidence that Botham Jean’s murderer and Atatiana Jefferson’s murderer were both cops.
I mean, Guygers defense mentioned how going to the wrong apartment was a frequent mistake people there made. Yet no of them shot and killed anyone. And people frequently check on their neighbors themselves, rather than call the police, and essentially perform welfare checks themselves, without ever shooting anyone.
There is no reason either of these two instances should have been any different. This is not normal, ordinary, reasonable or prudent behavior.
I mean, Guygers defense mentioned how going to the wrong apartment was a frequent mistake people there made. Yet no of them shot and killed anyone. And people frequently check on their neighbors themselves, rather than call the police, and essentially perform welfare checks themselves, without ever shooting anyone.
There is no reason either of these two instances should have been any different. This is not normal, ordinary, reasonable or prudent behavior.
Fort Worth PD have a history of murdering people in their own homes.
Panel Urged to Advance Case of Elderly Man Killed by Cops
“In the early morning hours of May 28, 2014, 72-year-old Jerry Waller was fatally shot in his garage by Fort Worth Police Officer Alex Hoeppner, one of two officers who had arrived to Waller’s house by mistake on a welfare check prompted by a neighbor’s alarm system.”
Panel Urged to Advance Case of Elderly Man Killed by Cops
“In the early morning hours of May 28, 2014, 72-year-old Jerry Waller was fatally shot in his garage by Fort Worth Police Officer Alex Hoeppner, one of two officers who had arrived to Waller’s house by mistake on a welfare check prompted by a neighbor’s alarm system.”
xtry51
NES Member
Doesn't change the narrative at all. He's prowling around the house without announcing himself. Even if she was pointing the gun at him, she correctly didn't shoot someone without identifying the target. Which is exactly the problem with the officers actions, because he did the opposite.
He should be charged with manslaughter.
He should be charged with manslaughter.
I didn't see much reporting of this incident. But cops shooting people in their own homes is becoming a trend.
kdvr.com
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlNgDqRtzdM
Aurora police release body cam footage from shooting of man in home
AURORA, Colo. — The Aurora Police Department released body camera footage from the shooting of a man who was inside his home. The video was published on YouTube Thursday evening. It shows the…
kdvr.com
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlNgDqRtzdM
Don’t identify themselves. Shoot him in the back through window. Charge him with felony assault and menacing. Because being armed in your own home is a crime when police shoot at and attempt to kill you.
But they didn’t need to identify themselves because they were certain he saw them, because they could see him! Obviously looking into a house with lights is exactly the same as looking out of a lit house into darkness. Duh.
How many people are going to get shot by cops through windows while standing in their own home?
But they didn’t need to identify themselves because they were certain he saw them, because they could see him! Obviously looking into a house with lights is exactly the same as looking out of a lit house into darkness. Duh.
How many people are going to get shot by cops through windows while standing in their own home?
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